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 Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Wed 06 Jul 2016, 21:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_Barreto
From wiki:
Isabel Barreto de Castro (Pontevedra, Galicia, Spain, (1567 – 1612) was a Spanish female sailor and traveler, considered one of the first women to hold the office of Admiral in history.[citation needed] She was daughter of Francisco Barreto, Portuguese governor of India, and married Alvaro de Mendaña, Spanish navigator, patron of several expeditions to the Pacific Ocean, and discoverer of the Solomon Islands and the Marquesas Islands 




I started reading an historical novel based on real history: It's from 1983
https://www.amazon.fr/vois-reine-quatre-parties-monde/dp/2266244345

And now after a quick research I see that also Robert Graves, the one I know from "I Claudius", has also written a novel about her:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Graves
https://www.amazon.com/Islands-Unwisdom-Robert-Graves/dp/B0006AS1I2#reader_B00J3WO4TE
Will have a look in the local library if they have that book too...It's from 1948
But now I see that there is a Spanish one too from 1943:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/30959855?q&versionId=37553461

An history book where all three novels are mentioned and commented:
Producing the Pacific: Maps and narratives of Spanish Exploration (1567-1606)
https://goo.gl/jf83rj


And about the islands that they discovered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesas_Islands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands


And she did it...nearly as great as Maggelhaen...from Peru to the Philippines...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Wed 06 Jul 2016, 21:23

Addendum to the previous message.

And this is more for Caro...

I discussed in the time on the BBC board about Cook and Australia...
And there I mentioned that it were the Dutch who had in fact first discovered Australia...
And now I see that the Spanish also navigated in the street between Guinea and Australia and seeing the continent..
http://diariodepontevedra.galiciae.com/blog/421883/el-gallego-que-descubrio-australia


And while Caro perhaps is reading this, she from New Zeeland and her son in England, and our neighbour, she near Bruges and her son in Singapore and in two weeks the grand-daughter again for work on a six months permit to New York...
As here on this small Res Historica we all conversing near in real time from all over the world...
It became a small world...when I was young New Zeeland was for me the end of the world...I remember to have read a novel from Nevil Shute where people were retreated to Australia? New Zeeland? after a catastrophic atomic war...yes really the end of the world...and see now...it's all interconnected...and nearly in contacts at the doorstep...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 10:16

The story of Ching Shih, Pirate Empress of the Red Flag Fleet;

Ching Shih
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 22:23

@Triceratops wrote:
The story of Ching Shih, Pirate Empress of the Red Flag Fleet;

Ching Shih


Thank you so much, Triceratops, for another female commandant, who had also a certain reputation.

While I was doing research yesterday I found on the site about Graves

https://www.amazon.com/Islands-Unwisdom-Robert-Graves/dp/B0006AS1I2#reader_B00J3WO4TE
some interesting statement...from the above wiki:
https://goo.gl/pyuNGb

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Start again Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Thu 07 Jul 2016, 23:04

I nominate Artemisia 1 of Caria who took five ships to join Xerxes fleet at Salamis..... with a price of 
10 000 drachmas offered by the Greeks if she was captured alive. This she skilfully avoided  when in flight by raising Greek colours and then attacking a ship of her Persian allies; that it was commanded by someone she greatly disliked may have been by chance....mmm. The Greeks assumed she was either a Greek supporter or a turncoat and she got away. Seeing Xerxes brother dead in the water she took him to him. I know not if he had been on the doomed Persian ship but Xerxes didn't get huffy.
It seems that Xerxes thought she was a great commander and asked her advice about his staying on once the battle was lost. She advised him to leave the fighting to Mardonias, Xerxes could then, she suggested, claim any victory   for himself and Persia ,and if Mardonias failed then he would be safely out of the way. I am not sure if this is the sort of thing  admirals do ( I have Admirals and Rear Admirals in my own history and I don't know what they did, either) - or, for that matter  if Artemisia was admirable, either. So this is just my 2 penneth on the subject and offered as a relief to give old history an outing. ID might be able do the fill in and corrections on mt take of this affair.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 07:38

And don't forget this lassie (though the English did a pretty good job of wishing they'd never heard of her at the time!)

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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 10:50

@nordmann wrote:
And don't forget this lassie (though the English did a pretty good job of wishing they'd never heard of her at the time!)

Is that Grace O'Malley (anglicised version of the name), Nordmann - or at least an artist's impression of the lady?

On another thread Temperance mentioned Game of Thrones as being addictive if lowbrow.  Apparently the character of Yara Greyjoy (Asha in the books) was based at least in part on Grace O'Malley and the author of the relevant novels, George R R Martin has called some of the cats he has had over the years "Grainne". (sp?)

Also, Priscilla referred to Artemesia.  The linked Guardian Reel Histories article about '300: Rise of an Empire" (based on a graphic novel) references a film which seems to have depicted a character named Artemesia that bore little resemblance to the real Artemesia although the article is quite funny https://www.theguardian.com/film/filmblog/2014/mar/12/300-rise-of-empire-reel-history-persians-greeks-salamis

Some of the comments are depressing though - of the school of real history would be boring!


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 18:35; edited 1 time in total
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:21

It is indeed LiR - more contemporary images also go along with the busts but emphasise the firepower, I imagine it was the latter that allegedly so impressed the Virgin Queen at the time (though one never knows).

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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:42

... Indeed, you never know... But I hadn't realised (until I consulted wiki) that the two actually met, when she went to Greenwich Palace in 1593 to petition the queen for her two captured sons. On that occasion Gainne/Grace sensibly put the pistols, and breasts, away and presented herself in a fine gown ... although she refused to bow nor did she acknowledge Elizabeth as queen. Their conversation was in Latin as neither was fluent in the other's language.

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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:28

@PaulRyckier wrote:
@Triceratops wrote:
The story of Ching Shih, Pirate Empress of the Red Flag Fleet;

Ching Shih


Thank you so much, Triceratops, for another female commandant, who had also a certain reputation.

While I was doing research yesterday I found on the site about Graves

https://www.amazon.com/Islands-Unwisdom-Robert-Graves/dp/B0006AS1I2#reader_B00J3WO4TE
some interesting statement...from the above wiki:
https://goo.gl/pyuNGb

Damned Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil  lost again by returning an entire part of my message Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil ...
Start again Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


and for the second time lost my message Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

Will stop it for this evening Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


Addendum to the previous message.

"While I was doing research yesterday I found on the site about Graves
https://www.amazon.com/Islands-Unwisdom-Robert-Graves/dp/B0006AS1I2#reader_B00J3WO4TE
some interesting statement...from the above site:
Graves says in his introduction:
"An English galleon was not readely distinguishable from a Spanish, and had much the same armement; but the Spanish seamen, though they knew their trade well, only worked a ship and did not fight her, while the soldiers, who were the best-disciplined in the world, fought, but dismissed to work her. Their naval and military officers were almost always at loggerheads, and the larger the vessel, the worse the mistrust and confusion."
After some lenghty discussions on several history fora about the comparison between the English and the Spanish fleet that is new to me.
If someone can confirm or invalidate that...?
What I learned from former discussions was that the English ships were smaller and had more manoeuvrability, which was many times pivotal in a sea battle...
Also the English ships seems to have had more standardised iron cast cannons, which became more and more reliable in comparison with the bronze guns which were more heat resistant in continuous firing...

I did some quick research on the net about the seamen/soldiers question and found no definite answer...but in the meantime I learned a lot about the Spanish fleet in the 16th century...
Some hints from my research:
https://goo.gl/pyuNGb

For fear to lose again my message I will add the other links in a separate message...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:37

https://www.geni.com/projects/Anglo-Spanish-War-1585-1604/11922
https://books.google.be/books?id=t6xUQcXxjCgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_ship_development,_1400%E2%80%931600
http://www.carlingfor-h.schools.nsw.edu.au/content/sites/students/history/Student_ICT_Projects/Year_9_Web_Sites/9H1_WebSites/SailingEra_2/Page_6.html
From the last site there is a hint about our question:
"The main warships of the Spanish Armada and English Fleet were galleons. The Spanish galleons of the Armada (Spanish word for fleet) were very heavy. These huge Spanish galleons continued in the old tradition of mediaeval sea battles, riding high out of the water. The height and broad beam made the ships awkward to sail. Their guns fired large cannon balls which were devastating at close quarters, but of limited range. Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside.

The modified English ‘race’ galleons developed by John Hawkins (Sir Francis Drake’s cousin) proved decisive in defeating the capacious Spanish galleons. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews. The English ships, led by skilled commanders such as Sir Francis Drake and John Hawkins, were able to manoeuvre around the Spanish Armada, bombarding it from a distance"


"Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside.
The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews."


Kind regards, Paul.

PS: If someone feels this is here "hors sujet" we can start a new thread about this specific question...
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:42

"The main warships of the Spanish Armada and English Fleet were galleons. The Spanish galleons of the Armada (Spanish word for fleet) were very heavy. These huge Spanish galleons continued in the old tradition of mediaeval sea battles, riding high out of the water. The height and broad beam made the ships awkward to sail. Their guns fired large cannon balls which were devastating at close quarters, but of limited range. Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside.

The modified English ‘race’ galleons developed by John Hawkins (Sir Francis Drake’s cousin) proved decisive in defeating the capacious Spanish galleons. The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews. The English ships, led by skilled commanders such as Sir Francis Drake and John Hawkins, were able to manoeuvre around the Spanish Armada, bombarding it from a distance"

"Moreover, the Spanish warships carried twice as many soldiers as sailors, and the soldiers were useless in a sea battle unless enemy ships come alongside.
The English ‘race’ galleons were smaller and swifter vessels, and were armed with cannons that fired a lighter ball over a greater range. Another advantage was the English vessels were armed almost entirely by trained seamen, with just a handful of soldiers. These English crews had learnt combat strategies when fighting piracy against Spanish ships, giving them a strategic edge over the Spanish crews."

Kind regards, Paul.

PS: If someone feels this is here "hors sujet" we can start a new thread about this specific question...
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sat 09 Jul 2016, 14:29

@Priscilla wrote:
I nominate Artemisia 1 of Caria who took five ships to join Xerxes fleet at Salamis..... with a price of 
10 000 drachmas offered by the Greeks if she was captured alive.

Good call Priscilla.

The complexities of Artemisia's story would lend credence to it. The paradox of her counselling against the naval battle and yet then fully committing to it after the decision had been made, is also very human. The somewhat odd attack upon a Persian vessel in order to evade capture is questionable. It can be taken at face value or else could possibly suggest someone who changed minds 4 times within the space of a day.

Intriguingly both historians Herodotus (pro-Athenian) and Ctesias (pro-Persian) were also Carian subjects. And while Herodotus gives a detailed and favourable account of Artemisia, Ctesias doesn't mention her at all. One might have expected it to have been the other way around. That said, one wonders just how much of Ctesias' Persica was left out in Photius' 9th century edition of the work.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Wed 13 Jul 2016, 21:51

I have now finished the novel from Alexandra Lapierre about Isabel Barreto.

I had a look to the local libraries to see if they had the work of Robert Graves from 1948 about the same Isabel. I mentioned overhere from Amazon. But no they haven't it. As I read the introduction on Amazon of Robert Graves, he did only a superficial research about the historicity.

What a difference with Alexandra Lapierre, who said in an addendum in her "remerciements"
This is the fruit of a long and minituous research, which has overturned my life...to follow the tracks of Isabel Barreto without to have to interrupt my raids to the Bibliotheca Nacional de España and the Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla, I even ended to move to Spain...in the same article she said that the research took three years...and further from her:
how to thank the chain of friends, who, from one world to another, have lodged me, nourished, guided, supported me on all possible ways during my inquiries in Europe, Asia and South-America...

As historical novel writer I think Alexandra Lapierre is worth to be honoured for her endurance and meticulous research...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Thu 14 Jul 2016, 07:30

I have at last got to replying to your query, Paul.  I have no knowledge of early women sailors (though I do have a book (unread) called She Captains) but indeed the Dutch via Abel Tasman were the first Europeans known to have discovered Aotearoa (NZ - it is Maori Language Week).  They didn't make landfall as the Maori they came across at the top of the South Island (which is Te Waipounamu in Maori, "waters of the pounamu", or jade if you prefer or greenstone) and rammed the small boat several members of the crew were on, and killed four of them, after which Tasman withdrew his ship.  See http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/european-discovery-of-new-zealand/page-2 for more information.  They called it Murderers Bay but that has since then been changed to Golden Bay - though our local Cannibal Bay about 10kms from where I live hasn't changed its name. 

Only the name of the leader of these expeditions gets a general mention so while the name of Tasman is well-known to NZers, the rest of his crew is not.   I don't remember ever hearing of Visscher or Gilseman before.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 15 Jul 2016, 21:27

Thank you very much Caro for your reply.
I read your whole link about the history of New Zealand:
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/european-discovery-of-new-zealand/page-2


I mentioned also to you last time, how interconnected the whole world became...here the best time on the continent (Britain + one hour) to write to each other in real time is in my opinion eleven o'clock in the evening...and even New Zealand became so close...on Jiglu I see some comments nearly everyday from Chris Morriss on the Syrian/Iraqi war and there are New Zealandian soldiers overthere too...and yesterday as one mentioned overhere New Zealand soldiers on the Bastille Day parade in Paris...commemoration of WWI...even with that worldwar now some one hundred years ago it became already a small world...Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Americans fighting far from their homes...

And actually I am again aware of that small world, while the grand-children part for overseas countries...the girl for a six months contract at New York...second time already...and the grandson joining a Belgian doctor ( a school friend) and his friend...female friend (I have always difficulties with words as "friend" as I see then a male...in Dutch and German we have at least the word "vriendin" and "Freundin" and in the Latin based languages as French and Spanish it is obvious...I have the same difficulty with the word "nurse" where I always see a female...) in Martinique. It is French overseas territory and as such part of the European Union (no pun intended) and the Euro is the currency...some years ago he was two times to Mayotte to the same doctor near La Réunion and Madagascar...

Yes it is indeed a small world...and I saw it perhaps three times once in California, in Florida and in Paris...I mean the Disney Parks...



OOPS and I forgot...and it all started in the 16th century...

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 15 Jul 2016, 21:40

And to go further of my mentioning of the French Mayotte and Martinique...
In my thread "New scramble for the oceans" there was this link about the 200 miles zones and the exclusive economic zones...
France seems to have the largest EEZ in the world even before the US...and it is all EEC territory Wink ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone


And about "It's a small world" I found the following "history"...
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/It's_a_Small_World_(song)

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sat 16 Jul 2016, 15:19

Oh no! not the old "Spanish Galleons" canard again! The Spanish were about the last major naval power to adopt the galleon configuration. At the time of the First Armada, the Spanish ships were NOT galleons, they were old-fashioned High-Charged ships (and the best were the Portuguese naos), with fore and after castles. The newer English ships, from the time of the first Hawkins bargain onward, were "race-built" galleons, lower at the bow, and much more maneuverable. Older English vessels, such as Frobisher's flagship "Triumph" were still high-charged - incidentally, Triumph is frequently thought to have been the largest vessel on either side (at around 1,000 English tons - about 2,000 by Spanish measure). Yes, the Spanish still tended to regard the soldiers as the principal fighters on board, and many of their guns were on field carriages, ready to be landed to support Parma's army. They were lashed in place, and, to reload them, the gunners had to climb over the gunwales and work suspended above the oggin.
Incidentally, I once attended a lecture given by a female admiral. http://www.famousscientists.org/grace-murray-hopper/
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sat 16 Jul 2016, 19:53

Thank you so much for your take on the Spanish/ English fleet comparison, Gil.
Can you enlarge even a bit, on the question of cannons for instance...

And glad to see you once back on the boards, Gil.

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sat 16 Jul 2016, 22:02

Paul :
Take a look at this - one of the competing views of Spanish ordnance in First Armada. http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba64/feat1.shtml

Also worth remembering that despite having the two sailors the Spanish stood in most awe of, El Draque and Achines, the English found it advisable to bestow the command on Howard, as he was a nobleman, although more a courtier and soldier than a fighting sailor, for all his title as Lord Admiral (beware "admiral" in Spanish usage btw - the C-in-C was normally referred to as "Capitano" with "al-Mirante" being his understrapper, thus the galleass "San Lorenzo" captured off Calais is described as the "Capitana Galleas" in a near-contemporary painting)
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sun 17 Jul 2016, 21:06

Thank you very much for the link, Gil.
I read it with great interest.
And that link sparked a new search on the internet...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Irch38a_1o
http://www.britishbattles.com/spanish-war/spanish-armada.htm


An interesting site for the comparison between the English and the Spanish vessels and also about the history of the Spanish "silverfleets":
http://www.cindyvallar.com/galleons.html

And about the new galleons built after the Armada disaster...
http://nauticalarch.org/the-twelve-apostles-reconstruction-outfitting-and-history-of-late-sixteenth-century-spanish-galleons/


Some additional remarks:
After the Armada disaster the Spanish ship building seems not be halted at all...
I read also about a big shipbuilding industry in the new colonies...perhaps for internal movements between the Philipines, Mexico, Peru?

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sun 17 Jul 2016, 21:23

Addendum to the previous message.

Gil, read last week a novel about commanding into a big fleet during WWII.
It was some nearly 60 years ago that I read this novel, but as I enjoyed it that much in the time I enjoyed it even more now. From what I read it couldn't be otherwise than that the author had experineced the stuff himself...and see:
https://www.amazon.com/Away-All-Boats-Kenneth-Dodson/dp/B002ITJXEK
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/838721.Kenneth_Dodson

And even a film about it...and I am nearly sure that I saw it in the time not realizing that the film was about the book that I read some years before...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_All_Boats


It all came to my mind while reading about the "manoeuvring" in the Spanish invading armada...
And I strongly recommend the book to you...especially you with your "maritime" experience...

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Sun 17 Jul 2016, 23:28

Paul : Thanks for the links! Many of the "urcas" (hulks) which formed the main bulk of First Armada woulld probably have been more like "Mary Rose" (classed as a "carrack" in the National Historic Fleets). Best view perhaps is of the Caldercraft model http://www.maritime-models.co.uk/acatalog/caldercraft-mary-rose.html#.V4wEtBJRrwo - note the bulky and unwieldy "fore castle" structure. Compare that with the race-built galleon such as Revenge http://www.alwayshobbies.com/model-boats/model-boat-display-kits-/occre-hms-revenge-galleon-wood-$4-metal-model-boat-1$585-scale-ship BTW - if novels and films are unreliable guides to the truth of a historic event, poetry is even less suitable to be cited as evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:23

As usual thank you very much for your links Gil.

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 02 Dec 2016, 12:57

Jeanne de Clisson, the Lioness of Brittany, a noblewoman who turned pirate in the 14th century;

Jeanne de Clisson


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PostSubject: Re: Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history   Fri 02 Dec 2016, 19:26

Yes her life reads as a novel. What a woman!

Kind regards, Paul.
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Isabel Barreto first woman admiral in history

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