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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Second French Republic   Sun 07 Aug 2016, 21:18

To be honest I came to the subject by seeing a documentary about George Sand; but got intrigued by the Second Republic, which I always have a bit neglected as they said that it was short living and wasn't of great importance to the general history. A bit as the short life of the United States of Belgium, which lived only one year before it got crushed by the Prussians...that French Republic however has hold it if I have understood it right for some four years...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Second_Republic
I put the French wiki in addition for those who understand French because the English wiki is a bit short and not in depth. I use for my research also the French one, to better understand the circumstances.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuxi%C3%A8me_R%C3%A9publique_(France)
One of the important persons in that republic was a writer Alphonse de Lamartine. He read even the declaration of the Republic in front of the population, he became minister of foreign affairs and was also éminence grise to the president, but when he later tried to get elected he had not enough population support especially against the populist Napoléon, the later Napoléon III after his coup d'état, becuase he was too much for peace and négociations...Even a Duke of Wellington commented from Britain that the French needed a hard hand as from a Napoléon...
As I commented above about the French language wiki, here I give the two too for the same reasons. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_de_Lamartine
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_de_Lamartine


As I understand it the republic failed because of the tensions between the several factions but essentially because of the claims of the Socialists, where there were also utopian Socialists as with the abolition of the right of property...but in other matters they were precursors as for the universal voting rights and especially by George Sand: the feminism?

About George Sand and her social(ist) engagement, which was in my opinion a bit "complex" to  say the best...after Napoléon III became a quasi dictator, she pleaded for several condamned by the new regime for the softening of their punishments. But on the other side she supported the crushing of the movement of the Commune of Paris in 1870...An evolution of political thoughts...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sand
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Sand


In another message I will ask the contributors, what their opinion is about the precursors of the Socialists in Britain and Socialism in general in that time in Britain. Also if George Sand wasn't the first suffragette even before the British ones?
Also about the promises incorporated in the Second Republic, which were sadly brought down again by Napoléon III...business as usual in the great traditions of the European nationalisms of that time...
Is it an impression of me that France was always a laboratory for new tendencies...? Or was it indeed Britain?

Kind regards, Paul.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Sun 07 Aug 2016, 23:48

Mary Wollstonecraft predated Georges Sand by a good long while - died in 1797, and her "Vindication of the Rights of Women" has a claim to be an earlier foundation document for a women's suffrage movement than Sand's. As to "socialist movements" - perhaps the Levellers could claim the title of proto-Socialists (or even John Ball's followers in the Peasants Revolt), with the Diggers closer to proto-Anarchism.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Mon 08 Aug 2016, 22:11

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Mary Wollstonecraft predated Georges Sand by a good long while - died in 1797, and her "Vindication of the Rights of Women" has a claim to be an earlier foundation document for a women's suffrage movement than Sand's. As to "socialist movements" - perhaps the Levellers could claim the title of proto-Socialists (or even John Ball's followers in the Peasants Revolt), with the Diggers closer to proto-Anarchism.


Gil, excuses, but sparked by your remarks I read the whole evening about Socialism in Britain and in France and yes perhaps you had the first premises in Britain but reading all the context the balance is perhaps mixed between France and Britain. Tomorrow more...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Tue 09 Aug 2016, 22:09

Sorry again Gil. The whole evening looking to the evergreen: the historicity of Jesus...on Historum...en put the controversy on the thread about the book: The Zealot of Reza Aslan in the thread.
Some controversial Fox interview about the book and the author:



Kind regards from your friend Paul.

PS: Perhaps I will start a new thread: Socialism versus Capitalism...
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Wed 10 Aug 2016, 22:00

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Mary Wollstonecraft predated Georges Sand by a good long while - died in 1797, and her "Vindication of the Rights of Women" has a claim to be an earlier foundation document for a women's suffrage movement than Sand's. As to "socialist movements" - perhaps the Levellers could claim the title of proto-Socialists (or even John Ball's followers in the Peasants Revolt), with the Diggers closer to proto-Anarchism.

Gil lost again my message...will first give my links and then proceed with my comments..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Janson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(Belgium)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/socialism/socialism.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levellers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartism


Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Wed 10 Aug 2016, 22:22

Addendum to the previous message.

Gil I made already a study of Socialism in Britain and France in the time of the old BBC board. I mentioned then also that in the second half of the 19th century there were already social tendencies in the Liberal party of Belgium, both in Flanders, Brussels/Wallonia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Janson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(Belgium)

 I see now that that was also the case in Britain and nearly in the whole industrialized Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

But back to Socialism in Britain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_Kingdom
If I understood it well the Liberals had already introduced the Socialists in parliament as a counterweight to the Conservatives? The Lib-labs?

Also a résumé:
http://www.victorianweb.org/history/socialism/socialism.html


And about the Levellers that you mentioned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levellers

And about the Chartism that I didn't know that well:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartism


One last question Gil:
If memory serves me, I read about a state of social rebellion, nearly revolution just before or immediate after WWI? Is what I recall wrong or was it on another date?

Kind regards, Paul.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Wed 10 Aug 2016, 23:22

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Thu 11 Aug 2016, 22:14

Thank you very much Gil for this reference. I read it all. Tomorrow my comments.

Your friend, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Second French Republic   Fri 12 Aug 2016, 21:29

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/11183

Gil, yes that was it...I wasn't aware of this pre WW1 revolutionary circumstances until some years ago, when I read about it in an historical novel...

And about another crisis that I read in a novel...the late 19th century economic crisis...
Did some quick research on internet, and indeed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893
https://goo.gl/u4PdRb

And now I see that there was even a "long depression":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression


And you seems to have had always bubbles and recessions...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_economic_crises


Kind regards, Paul.
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