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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Traditional insults   Mon 10 Feb 2014, 16:56

Just read a fascinating article on how cutting off the tail of someone's horse was one of the worse insults one could give another in Medieval times. Apparently it was an attack on the masculinity of an adversary, with the tail serving as a phallic symbol. 

http://www.medievalists.net/2014/02/09/how-cutting-off-a-horses-tail-was-a-big-insult-in-the-middle-ages/




The mocking of St Thomas a Becket ca 1424. Altarpiece, Hamburg Germany

What other past insults were there that we would now view with amusement, if nothing else.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 17 Feb 2014, 18:54

I'm glad that they don't have scolds' bridles anymore or dunk women who have the temerity to speak their minds.  There used to be a scold's bridle in the town museum many years ago - horrible thing it looked too.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 07 Jul 2014, 14:03

ID wrote:
What other past insults were there that we would now view with amusement, if nothing else.

I've just been reading an account of the "philosophical correspondence" engaged in by Martin Luther with several notable opponents, including of course Henry VIII in his famous rebuttal of Luther which earned him the title "Defender of the Faith" from a grateful pope. Amongst these was Thomas More, though Luther didn't know this as More had rather bravely hidden his printed remarks behind the pen-name G. Rousseaus (William Ross when printed in England).

Interestingly the term "theologist" at the time was considered a gross insult, as were "sophist", "Thomist" (follower of Aquinas's philosophy) and "romanist". By Henry and Luther's time these had become so hackneyed in fact that it was considered de rigeur to preface them all with "arch-". However in the flurry of "theological debate" surrounding Luther's remarkable assertions even these were considered lacking in oomph and more fanciful imagination came into play.

Luther at least showed a sense of humour. When faced with an adversary called Dr. Eck, Martin could not resist joining the letters up and referring to his interlocutor at all times as "Dreck" (German for dirt). Cochlaeus, another theologian at loggerheads with Martin (and all the "Martinists" - another contemporary insult of the day), became "Kochloeffel" to Luther (Kitchen Spoon).

However for sheer grossness it fell to the English, with Henry Tudor leading by example. In his famous rebuttal of protestantism, the Assertio, Luther was introduced as "... a venomous serpent, a pernicious plague, infernal wolf, cerberus-like, an infectious soul, a detestable trumpeter of pride, calumnies and schism, having an execrable mind, a filthy tongue, a detestable touch, stuffed with venom, this hideous monster being catch'd will become benumbed and pine away by his own vermin ...".

And that was just the introduction. Later in a letter to Charles V he is referred to by Henry as "... this weed, this delapidated, sick and evil-minded sheep." (obviously Henry was warming to the man - no mention of venom or vermin this time and sheep can be cuddly).

Luther bided his time before answering Henry's Assertio. Mainly restricting himself to calling Henry a monster and a liar (is David Starkey descended from him I wonder?) he concluded his own rebuttal of the rebuttal with "[Though] dealing with senseless wild monsters ... at least I have abstained from poisonous slander and lies (eh, Martin?) as in the king's book. Actually it is of little consequence if I despise and bite some earthly king, considering that he did not hesitate to blaspheme against the King in Heaven and to commit sacrilege with his poisonous lies." So there, Bluffy!

Luther justified his own name-calling using scripture, as you'd expect, citing how Christ, Peter and Paul were not above a little ribald slander themselves, frequently calling Jews "snakes, murderers, children of the devil and fools" (he actually cited quite a few more examples, something which not only reveals something about his own anti-semitic leanings but probably those of the three aforementioned Jews themselves).

Thomas More, writing as Ross, took up Henry's cudgel on his behalf thereafter. Now things got really ugly (sodomy and homosexuality being some of the milder themes explored in pseudo-Ross's musings about what Luther got up to in his spare time). Erasmus, a friend of More but who was completely unaware of his role in penning the "correspondence" expressed dismay at the general depths to which the "debate" was sinking but held Ross in particular opprobrium. Even by the rough and ready literary standards of the day More's invective had strayed (as a stampeding bull might stray) into very un-christian territory indeed. Though one phrase of More/Ross's stands out for its imagery and is actually quite lyrical when he said that Lutherans "had as much shame in the faces as a shotten herring has shrimps in her tail!". For non fisherfolk amongst us that might ring a little flat these days but look the term up and revel in its delicious double-negative.

Cochlaeus (who was More's principal informant) was meanwhile grinding up the gears back in mainland Europe. It was a short step between his accusation of Bacchanalian festivities round the proverbial clock up in Wittenburg and claims of polygamy to uniting these two images into the 16th century equivalent of huge swinger parties (bring your own prayer book). More took the bait and predicted that soon we would not have to worry about Lutherans anyway once these "bridegrooms, first sunk deep in infamy, then ruined with disease and want, giving themselves up to robbery ..." were, as Corporal Frazier would have said, doomed - all doomed I tell ye!

The whole thing came to an end when another German, Thomas Murner, entered the fray with his "Whether the King of England or Luther be a Liar". In typical German style (humour optional but not required) Murner simply stripped away the invective to see what points either had made. In the end he concluded that the only real charge Henry had levelled against Luther was that of inconsistency and, Murner reckoned, this seemed pretty fair. Luther for his part had responded defensively as one would expect any man to do who feels God's word is under fire, and that was fair enough too. This rather feeble (but probably accurate) assessment seemed to take the wind out of everybody's sails. Both More and Luther disliked Murner's intervention and reckoned him a bloody fool, but when both wrote to that effect, and they suddenly therefore found themselves unlikely allies, the ink thereafter ran dry.

It's a pity it did, as it is also a pity that theological debate is rarely quite so entertaining these days. I blame the atheists myself! Humourless lot!
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 07 Jul 2014, 15:58

Some interesting comments here about Luther's love of scatological language:

http://www.academia.edu/1016951/German_Hercules_The_Impact_of_Scatology_on_the_Image_of_Martin_Luther_as_a_Man_1483-1546

Apparently, on balance, the Protestants were much better at poo and fart insults than the Catholics (although More was definitely no slouch).

Tyndale was shocking. I remember when Melvyn Bragg presented his programme on this great Bible scholar recently, he had at one point to give a warning and an apology for what he was about to read out. The appalling comments that followed were all from Tyndale about Thomas More. I seem to remember one - which I certainly can't repeat here -  about More and the bottom of a p*ssing she-ass. But I might have it wrong: that might have been one of Luther's about His Holiness in Rome.

I wonder what Frau Luther and Lady More thought of all this? According to the link above, the former would often tell her husband off when he went too far.

What always amused me was how Luther, at the opening of his scathing response on Free Will, addressed to his great opponent, Erasmus, began with:

"To the Venerable Master Erasmus of Rotterdam, Martin Luther wishes Grace and Peace in Christ."

I think he then bounced several times on his whoopee cushion.


Last edited by Temperance on Tue 08 Jul 2014, 11:18; edited 1 time in total
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Fri 11 Jul 2014, 09:06

Temp, if you enjoy being insulted by Luther (and some of his insults were indeed choice) this website comes conveniently equipped with an "Insult Me Again" button which delivers a fresh sliver of Martin's bile with every click!

Hit Me Martin!
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Fri 11 Jul 2014, 10:40

That's made my day, nordmann. Thank you. When next I find myself troubled in spirit, I shall go to Hit Me Martin. for consolation.  Smile 

I particularly like "Snot-nose!" - simple, but effective. (I bet it sounds better in German.)
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Fri 11 Jul 2014, 23:01

@Temperance wrote:
That's made my day, nordmann. Thank you. When next I find myself troubled in spirit, I shall go to Hit Me Martin. for consolation.  Smile 

I particularly like "Snot-nose!" - simple, but effective. (I bet it sounds better in German.)

Temperance,

Snotneus (Dutch)
http://www.vlaamswoordenboek.be/definities/term/snotneus

"wordt gezegd tegen een jong, soms onvolwassen, persoon door iemand ouder om het leeftijdsverschil sterk duidelijk te maken. Soms ook kleinerend bedoeld.
Van Dale online: snotneus
jong iem. die zich meer aanmatigt dan met zijn leeftijd overeenkomt"
(is said about a young, sometimes immature person by someone older to point ostentativley  to the age difference. Sometimes used belittleling;
Van Dale dictionary: youngster, who assumes more than what fits his age)

With esteem as always,

Paul.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 07:58

Thank you, Paul. Actually I think on balance I prefer the English.

"Snotty" - as in "Don't you get snotty with me" - doesn't imply youth and immaturity in English. It means  "Don't try to put me down in what you think is a nasty, clever, superior way."

I like this one, too:

You reek of nothing but Lucian, and you breathe out on me the vast drunken folly of Epicurus.

Rather more erudite than "Snot-nose!" You could add that at the end, I suppose, but that might be overdoing it. Also snot and snotty comments are a bit vulgar.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 11:34

As a companion volume to the wit and wisdom of Luther, can I recommend The Wee Book of Calvin, a collection of cheery, life enhancing aphorisms mostly from the north east of Scotland. Among such uplifting gems as First braith, beginnin o yer daith, Aye. And his name's doon in the book o no rubin out. and Aye laddie, it's a hard life in a Hie'land tripe shop, there are some resounding put-downs, many exemplifying a deep appreciation of female beauty
'Bliddy wummin. A fais that wid turn a funeral up a side street wi a voice that wid shell a prawn wi wan screech. and Yev a fais like a skelpt erse
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 14:03

"She's got an arse the size of Normandy" was apparently a Tudor favourite. Its first recorded use was by that veray parfit, gentil knight, Henry VIII, when describing his new bride from the northern Rhineland.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 15:38

@Temperance wrote:
"She's got an arse the size of Normandy" was apparently a Tudor favourite. Its first recorded use was by that veray parfit, gentil knight, Henry VIII, when describing his new bride from the northern Rhineland.


That's a bit rich ... hefty Henry saying Anne had a big bum!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Or as Anna van Kleff herself might have muttered to her ladies-in-waiting: "De pot verwijt zwart de ketel!"
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 19:51

Meles meles,

"Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Or as Anna van Kleff herself might have muttered to her ladies-in-waiting: "De pot verwijt zwart de ketel!""


Yes indeed the English proverb is nearly the same as the Dutch one
"De pot verwijt de ketel dat hij zwart ziet" (verwijt:blames)(ziet: looks)
"The pot calling the kettle black"

But you know me, perhaps even worser than Nordmann...
Anna von Kleves was German...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Cleves
Thus sought for the German equivalent:
Also: "Der Topf wirft dem Kessel vor dass er schwarz ist" (the pot blames the kettle that it is black), but also: "Der Topf wirft dem Kessel vor verrusst zu sein" (verrusst: rusty) and some three other proverbs in German meaning the same...

Kind regards from your Dutch speaking friend from the North of Belgium, Paul.

PS: some two thirds of Flemish younger people (25-35 years) want to go further in an unitarian Belgium, some recent poll reveals...
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 20:06

This isn't strictly speaking about insults.  On another thread recently Paul R said I could "call a cat a cat" - is that the Flemish*  for "you can call a spade a spade" in the English vernacular? It means one can speak plainly. Mind you, I'm not sure if it's politically correct to say "call a spade a spade" these days. There is nothing wrong with the word 'spade' for a digging implement but 'spade' is sometimes used as a derogatory term for a person of black African descent.  I've also heard an extension of the "spade a spade" saying "call a spade a shovel" . * I get confused as to the difference between Flemish and Dutch - I tend to think of Flemish being what is spoken in Belgium and Dutch what is spoken in the Netherlands but have studied neither............
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 12 Jul 2014, 20:28

You've caught me out Paul. I thought Anna van Cleve, "the Flemish Mare", spoke Flemish. But no, she was a true German princess and so you are right she would have muttered, sotto vocce of course, to her maids in German. But at the same time I was trying to recall the Flemish expression that my partner so often used.

Also I wasn't sure about the spelling of Cleves, Kleff, Kleef, Cleve etc ... apparently the "K" is relatively modern, and so in old German and Flemish it was spelled with a "C" as in Cleve, Cleef or Cleff ... (meaning a cliff in English).

In French - and remember my partner's family are actually Walloon - I think the equivalent of, "pot calling the kettle black", is: "C'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la charité" - the hospital mocks the charity .... to mean very much the same thing.

Groetjes uit Frankrijk.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sun 13 Jul 2014, 22:31

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
This isn't strictly speaking about insults.  On another thread recently Paul R said I could "call a cat a cat" - is that the Flemish*  for "you can call a spade a spade" in the English vernacular? It means one can speak plainly. Mind you, I'm not sure if it's politically correct to say "call a spade a spade" these days. There is nothing wrong with the word 'spade' for a digging implement but 'spade' is sometimes used as a derogatory term for a person of black African descent.  I've also heard an extension of the "spade a spade" saying "call a spade a shovel" . * I get confused as to the difference between Flemish and Dutch - I tend to think of Flemish being what is spoken in Belgium and Dutch what is spoken in the Netherlands but have studied neither............

Lady in retirement,

" I get confused as to the difference between Flemish and Dutch"
Not so easy to explain it to a British lady...Flemish (the group of Flemish dialects including West and East Flemish, Brabantic, Limburgish) are dialects from Dutch, as the Hollandic and other named dialects. But in the East of the Netherlands you have also other languages in a language continuum nearing the German border dialects...
And to be honest even the Dutch dialects which are the same (extensions) at both sides of the border of Belgium and The Netherlands (if I say the Belgian and Dutch border you will be again confused) aren't really the same either due to 300 years of border separation and different education (different teachers) systems at both sides of the border...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_dialects

But it seems not that different from the British isles...I was once in Newcastle...hearing Geordie...as an "outlander"...something that could be English...but as well Swedish...

And in the Wiki about the dialects, they say that the West-Flemish dialect is nearly a separate language Twisted Evil ...so you see Wiki...and this one is for Meles meles...probably because it is edited by an "Ollander" Twisted Evil ...


" I could "call a cat a cat" - is that the Flemish*  for "you can call a spade a spade" in the English vernacular? It means one can speak plainly."

Yes I think it is one of the proverbs in Dutch to "call a spade a spade" to "say it in plain English"
http://www.vlaamswoordenboek.be/definities/term/kat,+een+~+een+~+noemen
"Call a cat a cat"
Call the things by their name. From French: "appeler un chat un chat"

Some list of some nearly fifty Dutch proverbs with the word "cat"...
http://spreekwoorden.info/spreekwoorden_over_katten.htm

Kind regards from your friend in retirement, who has nevertheless no time to do all what he wants to do (including also what he has!!! to do)
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sun 13 Jul 2014, 22:57

@Meles meles wrote:
You've caught me out Paul. I thought Anna van Cleve, "the Flemish Mare", spoke Flemish. But no, she was a true German princess and so you are right she would have muttered, sotto vocce of course, to her maids in German. But at the same time I was trying to recall the Flemish expression that my partner so often used.

Also I wasn't sure about the spelling of Cleves, Kleff, Kleef, Cleve etc ... apparently the "K" is relatively modern, and so in old German and Flemish it was spelled with a "C" as in Cleve, Cleef or Cleff ... (meaning a cliff in English).

In French - and remember my partner's family are actually Walloon - I think the equivalent of, "pot calling the kettle black", is: "C'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la charité" - the hospital mocks the charity .... to mean very much the same thing.

Groetjes uit Frankrijk.


Meles meles,

thank you for your friendly reply and for your French equivalent of the English and Dutch proverb.
I heard also another French equivalent: "Vous voyez la paille dans son oeuil, mais pas la poutre dans le votre". (You see the straw in his eye, but not the beam in your eye)
In our Flemish dialect we have the same proverb, but instead of the word "poutre" (beam) we say "bale" (in Dutch: baal, but in our Flemish dialect we use the French word "ballot").

Groetjes van bij Brugge.
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 06:42

I would guess that the comment "You see the straw in his eye, but not the beam in your eye" occurs in many languages and cultures since it's direct from the Bible:

Matthew 7:3-5 (King James version),

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not that beam that is in thine own eye.
How wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the
mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(World English Bible version):

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye,
but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye?
You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye,
and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the
mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

I suspect their are many more idiomatic phrases, insults included, that are taken direct from the same source. For example Matthew continues 7:6 (King James version):

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

.... I expect the phrase about throwing pearls to pigs exists in many languages too.
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 14 Jul 2014, 09:29

@Temperance wrote:
Thank you, Paul. Actually I think on balance I prefer the English.

"Snotty" - as in "Don't you get snotty with me" - doesn't imply youth and immaturity in English. It means  "Don't try to put me down in what you think is a nasty, clever, superior way."



Though "Snotty" is RN slang for a Midshipman.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Tue 22 Jul 2014, 16:42

Shakespeare can always be relied on for a nice insult.

Lots of Shakespeare expressions here that you can mix 'n' match in order to create your own original jibe.

http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/shake_rule.html

I quite like "Thou yeasty, full-gorged measle", although "spleeny, boil-brained pumpion" also has a pleasing ring to it.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 08:09

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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 09:08

No one yet has mentioned the ancient "sign of the horns " gesture which can be done to ward of evil but also be used as a gross insult.



Used to ward off evil (like touching wood etc.) I believe its origins go back to classical Greece, perhaps even earlier, no? But as an insult, doesn’t it derive from association with horns as a symbol to indicate a cuckold?

I tried to find an old painting or print showing the hand gesture being used to denote a cuckold but without success, so I’m not sure exactly how old this usage is.
DO NOT, like I did, type "cuckold" into a search for Google images …..unless you want to be greatly surprised and shocked!  Embarassed 

Either way as a mocking insult it’s still commonly used in Italy and Spain. In 2002 Berlusconi made the gesture behind the back of the Spanish foreign minister.... he said he was only joking but it was widely seen in Spain as grossly insulting.





I’m guessing that it also links to the more modern V-for-victory gesture, and again, when the V is reversed, as the insulting two-fingered V salute:




Churchill used both forms which suggests the insulting version is quite a recent development, and of course it's got absolutely nothing to do with English archers at Crecy waggling their two bow-drawing fingers at the French to show they could still "pluck yew!".
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 11:19

Some more cuckold stuff here. Apparently, cuckold/horn gestures are very much a Mediterranean thing these days - although here in England cuckold jokes and insults used to be popular.


References to cuckolds abound in English literature. In centuries past, marital infidelity was good for laughs. Such as in Chaucer's The Miller's Tale, in which a young suitor comes up with the most convoluted scheme to entice his young lover away from her suspicious, elderly husband.

"For she was wild and young, and he was old, And deemed himself as like to be a cuckold."

Shakespeare loved cuckolds - many of his characters suspected they had become one. Cue anger, jealousy, murder and, of course, comedy. The word was also an excellent insult... "crooked-pated old cuckoldy ram" is one of the more colourful
.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8133615.stm

PS The BBC article mentions the Romans, but not the Greeks (?).
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 12:10

ID, is showing an an open palm still insulting in Greece, and perhaps Caro can say why baring the bum is uniquely not an insult in Maori culture ?
Soles of the feet are a no-no in Muslim countries but there's so many obscene combinations of hands, fingers, elbows and so forth that it boggles the mind.
I seem to remember that biting the crooked index finger is a threat in mafia circles - is that right?
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 12:16

Don't know about the Mafia today, but Shakespeare certainly suggests thumb-biting was a provocative act in Verona. In the first scene of Romeo and Juliet, the Capulet lads do a spot of thumb-biting at the Montague boys:



GREGORY
I will frown as I pass by, and let them take it as
they list.

SAMPSON
Nay, as they dare. I will bite my thumb at them;
which is a disgrace to them, if they bear it.

Enter ABRAHAM and BALTHASAR
ABRAHAM
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

SAMPSON
I do bite my thumb, sir.

ABRAHAM
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

SAMPSON
[Aside to GREGORY] Is the law of our side, if I say
ay?

GREGORY
No.

SAMPSON
No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I
bite my thumb, sir.


GREGORY
Do you quarrel, sir?


Last edited by Temperance on Wed 23 Jul 2014, 16:35; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 23 Jul 2014, 13:52

The first recorded V-sign in history, from 1901;




The scene takes place about the 1 minute mark
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:39

One from the inhabitants of Rapa Nui (Easter Island);

The flesh of your mother sticks between my teeth.
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sun 16 Nov 2014, 03:46

Ferval, I think baring your buttocks is meant as an insult in Maoridom.  More as a protest than an actual insult perhaps but it is seen as insulting generally by the people it is aimed at.  I don't know if it was traditional in Maori society, but Maori warriors didn't wear a lot of clothes, so probably, but it has been used in modernish times as a form of protest.  Often at royalty by people the rest of us tend to roll our eyes at. 

I remember quite clearly about twenty years ago my husband telling me that I should stop waving to other cars with one finger, as I used to do, and use my whole hand.  I am not quite sure why a one-fingered salute began to supersede the inverted v insult. Or for that matter why either of them were chosen when a thumbs up denotes quite the opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sun 16 Nov 2014, 07:38

As an insult bum-baring has a long pedigree. Flavius Josephus recorded that in 66 AD a Roman soldier mooned Jewish pilgrims on their way to the Temple in Jerusalem. His action caused a riot, followed by an over-response by the Roman army which resulted in thousands of Jewish deaths.

Also supposedly just before the battle of Crécy in 1346 several hundred French soldiers mooned the English, but they had miscalculated the range of the English longbows and so were literally caught with their trousers down. I have a suspicion however that this tale might be as apochryphal as the two-fingured salute, said to have been performed at the same battle, although I'm sure the trading of insults, especially visual ones, was a common feature of medieval warfare.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sun 16 Nov 2014, 13:48

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http://reshistorica.historyboard.net
Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 10 Dec 2014, 03:55

I am reading (at times) David Crystal's The English Language written in 1988.  In a chapter entitled English at Play he talks about taunts, boasts, and insults, beginning with the ritual insults ('raps') used by black American youths and which he interprets as testing the donimance of others, without recourse to fighting or bloodshed.

Then he goes back in history and says one of the earlier recorded exchanges is in the Battle of Maldon between the English and Danish leaders.  He doesn't quote anything from that but does from William Dunbar's poem on the early fifteenth century, 'The Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedie'.  "

Mauch muttoun, byt buttoun, peilit gluttoun, air to Hilhous;

Rank beggar, ostir dregar, foule fleggar in the flet;

Chittirlilling, ruch lilling, lik schilling in the milhous;
Baird rehator, theif of natur, fals tratour, feyindis gett;
Filling of tauch, rak suach, cry crauch, thow art oursett;
Muttoun dryver, girnall ryver, yadswywar, fowll fell the;
Herretyk, lunatyk, puspyk, carlingis pet,
Rottin crok, dirtin drok, cry cok, or I sall quell the. 

He didn't give a translation and I am having trouble finding one, and have decided to post this before looking any more in case I inadvertently close the tab, which has been known to happen.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 10 Dec 2014, 04:21

The nearest I can find is at this site, though I don't think it has these particular lines. http://literaryconsiderations.blogspot.co.nz/2009/10/flighting-of-dunbar-and-kennedy.html
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Wed 10 Dec 2014, 09:20

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Parallax
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Thu 18 Dec 2014, 15:48

@PaulRyckier wrote:
@Temperance wrote:
That's made my day, nordmann. Thank you. When next I find myself troubled in spirit, I shall go to Hit Me Martin. for consolation.  Smile 

I particularly like "Snot-nose!" - simple, but effective. (I bet it sounds better in German.)

Temperance,

Snotneus (Dutch)
http://www.vlaamswoordenboek.be/definities/term/snotneus

"wordt gezegd tegen een jong, soms onvolwassen, persoon door iemand ouder om het leeftijdsverschil sterk duidelijk te maken. Soms ook kleinerend bedoeld.
Van Dale online: snotneus
jong iem. die zich meer aanmatigt dan met zijn leeftijd overeenkomt"
(is said about a young, sometimes immature person by someone older to point ostentativley  to the age difference. Sometimes used belittleling;
Van Dale dictionary: youngster, who assumes more than what fits his age)

With esteem as always,

Paul.

Ja..der shnotzen nozzen.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Thu 18 Dec 2014, 19:58

Parallax,

is it possible that I descry a Mosel Frank... Wink ?

I did  a whole research for : "shnotzen nozzen" but rien, rien du tout...
Even with "schnauze nase" rien du tout.
If I am right, does that mean that "snotneus" also exist in your dialect?
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothringisch_(Fr%C3%A4nkisch)
http://www.dw.de/wir-sind-franzosen-das-ist-ganz-klar/a-898264
http://www.sr-online.de/sronline/sr3/uebersicht/sr_3_thema/frankreich_regionalsprachen100.html


Kind regards, Paul.

And if I didn't say it already, welcome to the boards.
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Parallax
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Mon 22 Dec 2014, 14:13

Not "my dialect"...more like Benny Hills dialect.:)
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Tue 23 Dec 2014, 22:20

Sorry, Parallax Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed , I thought that you were my friend from the Historum forum, Isleifson from Lorraine tudesque...

But nevertheless I hope that with all this "the ice is broken" (I hope this is English too) (Dutch: het ijs gebroken) between us and again welcome to these boards.

Kind regards and with esteem, Paul.
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Parallax
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PostSubject: Re: Traditional insults   Sat 27 Dec 2014, 23:08

Very nice words Paul. You were not mistaken...I am your friend, but from this forum, should you find that agreeable. Hopefully we will spend many hours together, dissecting history in the future.
Good to meet you!
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