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 Scotland and Shetland

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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 03 Mar 2014, 16:08

I have recently heard it argued that when Scotland gets independence Shetland will then seek for it for themselves.

Is this serious? Is it possible? What is their quarrel with Scotland? Would  they have  premise to deny it?
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 03 Mar 2014, 16:41

Well this is where it could all start to get very silly, IMO ... So maybe after Scotland gets independence then so does the Shetlands, Orkneys and Wales ... followed perhaps by Cornwall. Then what, the People's Free State of Yorkshire, ... a new bid for freedom by the South Saxons declaring an independent Sussex which in turn splits again into West Sussex and East Sussex. The Commonwealth of Greater London tries to go it alone ... but then Tooting declares UDI ... Rolling Eyes



I thought the world was generally striving to come closer together rather than erecting ever more boundaries and creating ever more tribal groups.

But there again I don't think Shetland and the Orkneys are strictly part of Scotland. They were effectively pawned to Scotland because Norway couldn't pay the agreed dowry for James III's bride Margaret of Norway. And so although formally annexed by the Kingdom of Scotland in 1472 one could argue that they are still only held by Scotland in trust until the dowry is paid. The outstanding sum in question is 50,000 Rhenish guilders for Orkney and 8,000 Rhenish guilders for Shetland. King Christian I of Norway, without knowledge of the Norwegian Rigsraadet - the Council of the Realm, also secured a clause in the contract which gave any future kings of Norway the right to redeem the islands for a fixed sum of 210 kg of gold or 2,310 kg of silver. I'm sure the present Norwegian government, or indeed the present king Harald V, could easily afford this sum, but I'm not sure it is still legal under Norwegian law to pay a monetary dowry to someone and so effectively bribe them to take ones relation as their wife ... at least not without consulting the lady first, which in the case of Margaret of Norway, might be difficult as she died in 1486 .

But regarding these countries' independence, as always I guess it comes back to the question: What do the Orcadians,.... and the Hebrideans, Welsh, Cornish, Yorkshire folk, themselves actually want?


Last edited by Meles meles on Mon 03 Mar 2014, 18:07; edited 5 times in total
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 03 Mar 2014, 17:40

Essex won't want the pound or the Euro - barter  perhaps, the Euro Song contest, white shoes, tanning shops, smoking everywhere and Romford for capital - and  all Mondays off to celebrate, the Peasants' revolt and Saturday night fever.  I ought escape to the Isle of Wight and run for Parliament there. Doubt there will be one here. Swastickers long carved on Chelmsford City Hall columns does not augur well.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 03 Mar 2014, 19:13

Kingdom of Mercia here we come (except we won't bother with having yer actual King, unless, of course, it's Ayli & Aynuk as joint  kings, as per Sparta.)

BTW - Zetland has form on this, they voted against devolution in the 70s.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 28 Apr 2014, 13:54

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Kingdom of Mercia here we come (except we won't bother with having yer actual King, unless, of course, it's Ayli & Aynuk as joint  kings, as per Sparta.)

BTW - Zetland has form on this, they voted against devolution in the 70s.

If they want volunteers for somebody to be "Lady of Mercia" maybe I could fit the bill?  But then again, do I want the hassle at my age? Not really.  

I always have to look up the changes in jurisdiction concerning the Shetlands and the Orkneys over the years; I can never remember when such islands were under the sway of Scotland and when under the control of Scandinavian countries.  I did like the children's cartoon series "The Saga of Noggin the Nog", said to have been inspired by the Lewes chessmen, when I was even younger than I am now.


Last edited by LadyinRetirement on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 13:54; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : had missed "of" even though I did proof-read before posting)
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Mon 28 Apr 2014, 16:05

Bet there'd be plenty of volunteers for Godiva - not sure about the tattoos and piercings, though!
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Arwe Rheged
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 12:21

@Priscilla wrote:
I have recently heard it argued that when Scotland gets independence Shetland will then seek for it for themselves.

Is this serious? Is it possible? What is their quarrel with Scotland? Would  they have  premise to deny it?

I'd heard that too.  Apparently, some of them have talked about applying direct to the UK to become a Crown Dependancy. 

I'm not sure if they'd be allowed to do it.  As anyone who has followed the independence debate will know, an independent Scotland's future fiscal security is underpinned by oil money.  However, as Shetlanders have pointed out, the oil is, for the most part, theirs and not Scotland's.  So, given that Salmond's Big Plan is to keep the oil money, he'd be highly unlikely to want to extend to the Shetlanders the same political self-determination which he wants for the Scots.

This annoys Shetlanders and the Orcadians, many of whom don't actually consider that they have that much in common with their central belt cousins (which is where about 80% of Scots actually live).  I was in Stromness a couple of years ago and overheard a polite (but slightly affronted) Orcadian pointing out to a tourist that Orcadians were not Scottish.  They seem to feel the difference as keenly as do the Cornish.  Orcadians (and Shetlanders, I think) have their own flag, which they appear to fly in preference to the Saltire and both sets of islanders have a strong sense of their Scandinavian heritage.  As such, the SNP are not such a force there.  So, I suspect that they take exception to Salmond banging his jingoistic drum and talking about Scottish oil, which might better be called Shetland oil.

Morally, it'd be difficult for Salmond to deny the islanders the right to self-determination, but he's a shrewd political operator (even if he does lie like a cheap rug) and I think he'd deny it them anyway - as if he didn't, an independent Scotland is probably insolvent on Day One.   I don't suppose they'd have a legal right to independence any more than the Scots do - the hidden reality of the whole independence debate is that if the Yes vote winds out, they'd be heavily reliant on RUK goodwill to pass the laws to make the split happen.  I'm sure it would happen, but if Shetlanders wanted the same indulgence in an independent Scotland, they'd need SNP goodwill, which they wouldn't get.

Ethnicity, eh? 

Regards,

AR
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 13:19

Unlike the UK with it's £1.4 trillion national debt and a credit rating of Aa1.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 14:22

I see that now even Worcestershire has made its own tentative step in the direction of independence too. In a move that went almost unnoticed outside of the county's willow growers their County Cricket team has surreptitiously dropped the "Royals" moniker and replaced it with "The Rapids". The new brand name is not without political significance either given the annual flooding by the Severn of the WCC's New Road Stadium, the expectation among observers in Whitehall now being that the next time it occurs Worcestershire will avail of international law to declare the territory a maritime zone. (They have also cited historical precedence in their favour here too - Worcestershire sauce already being a crucial ingredient in Navy Bean Soup)
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 15:51

For such a serious step. it irks to see Yes supporters all painted up as if rooting for a sports team. On winning and a lengthy booze-binge - what will they go for next for their team's glory? It seems such  a huge step - and what of Scottish Regiments?  Do they ever recruit non Scots anyway? Many used to be based in the south. Whatever, I honestly can't imagine any service personnel later doing a Crimea/Ukraine type land grab for the rest of the kingdom - not on a language basis. Many Scots speak and write splendid English - others are not so  -er- clear.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 17:51

@nordmann wrote:
I see that now even Worcestershire has made its own tentative step in the direction of independence too. In a move that went almost unnoticed outside of the county's willow growers their County Cricket team has surreptitiously dropped the "Royals" moniker and replaced it with "The Rapids". The new brand name is not without political significance either given the annual flooding by the Severn of the WCC's New Road Stadium, the expectation among observers in Whitehall now being that the next time it occurs Worcestershire will avail of international law to declare the territory a maritime zone. (They have also cited historical precedence in their favour here too - Worcestershire sauce already being a crucial ingredient in Navy Bean Soup)


Careful if you drive round there in flood time!

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/naval1960&div=16&id=&page=
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 18:09

I think the rest of the UK should ask to become part of Shetland, seeing as they are sitting on their nest egg of a £650 million oil fund and have community facilities and infrastructure which most of us can just dream of. The remainder of that irreplaceable bonanza was poured down the drain by successive incompetents in Whitehall.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 18:26

On further thoughts, Shetland might have a case - they were pawned to the King of Scotland, rather than the nation and even the First Minister seems to admit Liz will remain monarch if Scotland secedes - what more natural than that she should take her possessions with her rather than hand them over? Especially if they ask her to!

edited - I cor spel not nohow.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 19:24

Queen Liz? ... or King Harald V of Norway?

By the terms of the original marriage settlement of 1472, any subsequent King of Norway can redeem the Shetlands and Orkneys if he coughs up enough to pay off the outstanding debt, which was fixed at a sum of 210 kg of gold or 2,310 kg of silver ... as is very clearly stated in the ancient agreement.

So, for a trifling 2,500,000€ or so, King Harald can add all the oil reserves of Shetland and Orkney to the Norwegian State holding should he so wish.


Last edited by Meles meles on Thu 01 May 2014, 19:39; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Got my coversions wrong a gramme of gold costs about £10.)
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 19:36

That's just about the float behind the bar on any night in the Grand Hotel in Oslo.

Mind you, if the Norwegians and Danes claimed everything back that they once had there'd be ructions!
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Thu 01 May 2014, 23:45

@ferval wrote:
I think the rest of the UK should ask to become part of Shetland

Interesting suggestion.

Isn't it the case that the UK technically belongs to Guernsey and Jersey. Something to do with the ducal title of Normandy being an older title than the royal title of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. I remember being told that as a child but it could well be an insular myth.
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Arwe Rheged
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Fri 02 May 2014, 14:04

Quote :
Something to do with the ducal title of Normandy being an older title than the royal title of Great Britain & Northern Ireland

Whatever the truth of that, the dukes of Normandy and their beardie-wierdie Angevin and Plantaganet successors are just a bunch of murderous, inbred Johnny-Come-Latelies.  Worse than that, they're practically French.  What we need is a return to the Anglo Saxon heptarchy to the south and east of the Fosseway line and the return of the Hen Ogledd to the north and west.  We can then get back to what Britain should be all about - slaughtering each other and celebrating our martial valour in dreary panegyric.




Quote :
Mind you, if the Norwegians and Danes claimed everything back that they once had there'd be ructions!

 Which reminds me.  Sorry, Boss, but we'll be wanting reparations.  Your lot left Lincolnshire in a disgraceful state.

Regards,

AR
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: Scotland and Shetland   Sun 04 May 2014, 00:06

@nordmann wrote:
Mind you, if the Norwegians and Danes claimed everything back that they once had there'd be ructions!

Dublin and York etc go to Oslo while Norwich and Lincoln etc go to Copenhagen. Might work.  

It reminds me of an interview a few years back when a member of the Falkland Islands legislature chose to tackle the issue of sovereignty head-on. The television interviewer mentioned Argentina's claim to the islands being based on the fact that islands and Argentina had been united under Spanish colonial rule and so should have remained united after Spanish rule ended. "Okay" said the islander. "We can be re-united. That part of Falkland which is located on the South American mainland can re-unite with us and accept direct rule from Stanley."
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