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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:38 pm

Addendum to the previous message.

Ferval, did seek for " the bloody fields of Flanders"



And look in the middle there is something others than a cross...

Have to admit that I prefer Pumeza...from a musical point of view...

Kind regards from Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:07 pm

@Priscilla wrote:
Hymns and National anthems: So Jerusalem  as well as for the Women's Institute, it is  England's  national anthem - this I did not know until these Games. How long has that been so? It must be politically confounding to anyone who hears the words with no idea of the - eeeeh I must try this the er -story arc behind it. Which makes it about right for England - confounding, I mean....

(I mean.......... yeah, I mean etc .....is also used  alot by athletes when on a rabbiting high just after a race... I mean. Another I mean and I'll scream, I mean.)

Then there's the Australian anthem. It sounds to me much like 'All Glory Laud and Honour' the Easter hymn. Actually, on reflection, it seems to me that there's only a thinly cut slice of ham between most anthems and hymns.


Priscilla,

what one all learns as a "Continental" (from Europe) overhere on these boards...



and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anthem_of_England

Kind regards from your old (literally and "familiar through long acquaintance") friend, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:11 pm

And LIR thank you for your friendly reply.

Kind regards from an old recent friend, Paul.
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:00 am

@ferval wrote:
'Flower of Scotland'! Don't start me. That was fine in a smoky folk club but as a national anthem - I think not. I'd go for 'Freedom Come A' Ye', did you hear Pumeza singing it at the Opening Ceremony? It's a pity they didn't put up the words - or a translation at least!



The Freedom Come All Ye
This magnificent song was written by Hamish Henderson in 1960 for the peace marchers at the Holy Loch near Glasgow. The tune is the World War I pipe march, ‘The Bloody Fields of Flanders’.



Roch the wind in the clear day’s dawin

Blaws the cloods heelster-gowdie ow’r the bay

But there’s mair nor a roch wind blawin

Through the great glen o the warld the day.



It’s a thocht that will gar oor rottans

A’ they rogues that gang gallus, fresh and gay -

Tak the road and seek ither loanins

For their ill ploys, tae sport and play



Nae mair will the bonnie callants

Mairch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw,

Nor wee weans frae pit-heid and clachan

Mourn the ships sailin doon the Broomielaw.



Broken faimlies in lands we’ve herriet

Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair;

Black and white, ane til ither mairriet

Mak the vile barracks o their maisters bare



So come all ye at hame wi Freedom,

Never heed whit the hoodies croak for doom

In your hoose a' the bairns o Adam

Can find breid, barley-bree and painted room.



When MacLean meets wi’s freens in Springburn

A' the roses and geans will turn tae bloom,

And a black boy frae yont Nyanga

Dings the fell gallows o the burghers doon.

Sorry to say (hangs head in shame) I hadn't heard of Pumeza before reading this though I have read (a little) about her on the internet and watched a couple of videos. Nice to see someone from South Africa achieving well in the world internationally. I thought Pumeza did very well with the Scots accent - though obviously I'm not native Scots so couldn't judge as aptly as, say, Ferval.  In the event that Scotland does become independent, I guess we'll have to see what they choose as a national anthem. Will they keep the queen if they become independent?  Would she become Elizabeth I of Scotland in that event (as Anne Boleyn's daughter was queen prior to the Union - and to the Stewarts becoming monarchs of England as well as Scotland)?
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:33 pm

Some of us hope they'll take the whole family back in they do secede.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:16 pm

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Will they keep the queen if they become independent?

I've never understood why this question always arises whenever independence for Scotland is discussed. Nobody questions the fact that New Zealand and Australia both have their own teams at the Commonwealth Games. Or that they each have their own parliaments, foreign affairs departments and defence forces. Yet they both share the same monarch.

P.S. Does God Save The Queen qualify as a hymn?
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LadyinRetirement
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:43 pm

@Vizzer wrote:
@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Will they keep the queen if they become independent?

I've never understood why this question always arises whenever independence for Scotland is discussed. Nobody questions the fact that New Zealand and Australia both have their own teams at the Commonwealth Games. Or that they each have their own parliaments, foreign affairs departments and defence forces. Yet they both share the same monarch.

P.S. Does God Save The Queen qualify as a hymn?

Vizzer, I did not realise the question had arisen numerous times before.  Still, it won't be the first time I've thought of something and then discovered that the world and his Uncle Bertie and Auntie Gertie have been there, done that and worn the T-shirt before me.  I suppose God Save the Queen could be construed as a hymn as it is addressed to God.

Edit: I was also thinking about whether Scotland would become a republic if it became independent but realise now I did not mention that in my original post.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:03 pm

Here's the full version - including those dodgy verses we just mustn't sing any more:





1. God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

2. O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

3. Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!
4. Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

5. From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!














 

This is genuine and completely innocent question: who on earth was Marshall Wade?
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:19 pm

Had you seen these roads before they were made.
You would lift up your hands and bless General Wade.


Marshal, then general, Wade was dispatched to Scotland after the 1715 rebellion to do a bit of crushing, mostly by constructing military roads and forts, Temp. Many modern roads follow more or less the same routes, the A9 for instance, and there's quite a number of stretches still visible. Fort William and Fort Augustus got their names from his efforts.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:37 pm

General Wade wasn't however so effective during the 1745 Jacobite rebellion, which is when the sixth verse was added to the national anthem. He was Commander-in-Chief of the main northern army which he based at Newcastle upon Tyne. But the sneaky Jacobites advanced down the west coast via Carlisle and so by-passed him completely. Far from "crushing the rebellious Scots", he failed to engage them at all. And he failed again when they retreated back to Scotland from Derby. Consequently he was replaced as commander by Prince William, Duke of Cumberland, and it was 'Butcher Cumberland' that did the required crushing when he led the army to success at Culloden in 1746.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:11 pm

@Vizzer wrote:
Quote :
P.S. Does God Save The Queen qualify as a hymn?

The melody appears in my copy of "Hymns, Ancient & Modern", to accompany the words of the hymn, "Glory to God on High":

Glory to God on high,
Let praises fill the sky.
Praise ye His name.
Angels His name adore,
Who all our sorrows bore,
And saints cry evermore,
Worthy the Lamb.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:02 pm

Another point to appreciate about George Wade is that he was Irish. Just to add to the confusion.

About Glory To God On High - the same tune was also the American national anthem My Country 'Tis Of Thee for many years.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:29 pm

The tune was also the Swiss National Anthem, "Rufst du, mein Vaterland ", until 1961 and it is still used as the National Anthem of Liechtenstein, "Oban am jungen Rhein",  (and so when England played Liechtenstein in a Euro 2004 football qualifier the same tune was played twice). In times past the tune has also been the Royal Anthems of Norway, Sweden and Saxony as well.

So an independent Scotland need not necessarily drop "God Save the Queen" as an anthem (and she will still be the Queen of Scots anyway)  ... Canada, Australia, New Zealand all still retain the tune and lyrics as "Royal Anthems". Indeed for five acrimonious years after Rhodesia declared UDI from Britain, Rhodesia still retained "God Save the Queen", as the official national anthem.

From wiki:

"When Rhodesia issued its Unilateral Declaration of Independence from Britain on 11 November 1965, it did so while still maintaining loyalty to Queen Elizabeth II as the Rhodesian head of state, despite the non-recognition of the Rhodesian government by Britain and the United Nations; "God Save The Queen" therefore remained the Rhodesian national anthem. This was supposed to demonstrate the continued allegiance of the Rhodesian people to the monarch, but the retention in Rhodesia of a song so associated with Britain while the two countries were at loggerheads regarding its constitutional status caused Rhodesian state occasions to have "a faintly ironic tone", in the words of 'The Times'. Nevertheless, "God Save The Queen" remained Rhodesia's national anthem until March 1970, when the country formally declared itself a republic".
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:32 pm

Does Australia still use God Save the Queen?  NZ does and our government site says it is unique in having two national anthem of equal significance.  (Though most NZers wouldn't think they were equal since God Save the Queen is only used officially when the Queen, Governor General or member of the royal family is present.)  The Queen, however, did have to give permission for God Defend New Zealand to become our national anthem.  I read in teara.co.nz (historical encyclopedia of NZ):In the early 1920s the governor general, Viscount Jellicoe, refused to attend a function when he saw ‘God defend New Zealand’ on the programme, with no mention of ‘God save the King’.  I am a bit surprised it was used at what was presumably at least a semi-official occasion so early.

Re national anthems being hymns on the same site says, "A national anthem is a patriotic song that is often performed on official occasions. Its words may evoke a country’s history, foresee its destiny or express a political ideology. The musical form is usually that of a hymn, with a series of verses, each having the same tune."

Why is that last verse about Marshall Wade still considered part of the English national anthem - or is it not really?  It's not mentioned anywhere as part of the New Zealand version.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:40 am

In current usage, usually only the first and third verses are used, except for myself and fellow members of the Awkward Squad, who insist on singing only the second verse when the Mountbatten-Windsors are not physically present.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:10 pm

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
In current usage, usually only the first and third verses are used, except for myself and fellow members of the Awkward Squad, who insist on singing only the second verse when the Mountbatten-Windsors are not physically present.


 Wink 

Kind regards from your old comrade (not the Russian version...but French: votre camarade, German: Ihr Kamerad, Dutch: Uw kameraad), Paul.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:57 pm

@PaulRyckier wrote:
@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
In current usage, usually only the first and third verses are used, except for myself and fellow members of the Awkward Squad, who insist on singing only the second verse when the Mountbatten-Windsors are not physically present.


 Wink 

Kind regards from your old comrade (not the Russian version...but French: votre camarade, German: Ihr Kamerad, Dutch: Uw kameraad), Paul.
Paul : As I am off to the Land of my Fathers (several generations back) tomorrow, I will return your salutation as "Cofion cynnes oddi wrth eich hen gyd" - if Minette will pardon my suspect command of the language (even with the assistance of a Welsh-English dictionary).

Re anti-Catholic sentiments in some Protestant texts, see Luther's words http://www.kalliope.org/en/digt.pl?longdid=luther2000070921 although later moderated, Praetorius set the original as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-flbSceuxg
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: About hymns   Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:49 pm

See you back in some days, Gil. And with the trick learned from Nordmann:




Kind regards and with esteem,

Paul.
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