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 The Elephant in the Room.

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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 13:14

@Triceratops wrote:
Warning!!! contains strong language;

John Oliver





Trike,



To me this sounds somewhat like the time President Bill Clinton was misquoted, when actually saying, "Sack my cook".
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 14:52

@Nielsen wrote:



Trike,



To me this sounds somewhat like the time President Bill Clinton was misquoted, when actually saying, "Sack my cook".

Brilliant Nielsen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
........................................................................


Part 2 of John Oliver;

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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 16:26

Heaven help me but I'm finding all this engrossing and providing me with much diversion from all the sport infesting the ether. We are where we are and so there is no alternative but to derive as much amusement as possible from the gyrations of the politicos; when one has been forced on board a runaway train one might as well enjoy the ride.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 18:02

Isn't the real elephant in the room the police reported 57% rise in xenophic hate crimes just since last Wednesday? Sounds like there's some serious soul searching to be done (mainly by English people)  in the near future. 

Poles especially must be pretty pissed off,  historically speaking. 

Still,  as long as we can joke about it ...
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 18:28

@nordmann wrote:
Isn't the real elephant in the room the police reported 57% rise in xenophic hate crimes just since last Wednesday? Sounds like there's some serious soul searching to be done (mainly by English people)  in the near future. ..


...Still,  as long as we can joke about it ...



Well, nobody here would dream about joking about hate crimes, nordmann - as I am sure you are well aware.

We are trying to laugh at the politicians in a desperate effort to stay sane as we live through this whole ghastly debacle. As all honest people will admit, there are hateful thugs and louts in every nation.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 19:17

Oh, come on nordmann, pitch black humour has always been an Irish speciality so don't go all po-faced on us as we try to get through this. Bereavement has many stages.
Anyway, it's beyond parody, Nige is now complaining he's being betrayed by his fellow Outers pedalling back on their promises re immigration and free movement. They won't talk to him apparently and he thinks that Boris is back sliding. Quick, isn't he?
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 19:28

Well ..... I'll admit that I do feel a bit torn. I wish the whole damn brexit thing had never even been introduced back in 2015, ... but now, though it grieves me to see the country of my birth tearing itself apart ... I do feel somewhat vindicated in my decision 15 years ago to leave you all to it. I now have to look to my own future, and so I sincerely hope that my government - that's the government of where I live, France, together with the EU as a whole - act promptly to minimise the damage that the UK has selfishly caused.

So yes, I have a schadenfeude side of me that says: more fool you, Britain, for being so niave, stupid, selfish, arrogant, xenophobic, and ignorant. You really do need to learn how extremely painful this is going to be for you... if only to stop you ever trying this silly game again. This is what you wanted (and what you've been wingeing about ever since you joined the EEC), so now, piss off and let the rest of us grown up countries get on with trying to deal with the real problems of the world. Most European citizens are not vindictive but you've already pissed most of us off big time, years ago. And I say that as a British citizen.


Last edited by Meles meles on Mon 27 Jun 2016, 19:43; edited 2 times in total
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 19:29

The racism now surfacing is indeed a cause for concern, as it is everywhere. It needs to be stamped on decisively, quickly and it made clear that it will not be tolerated by anyone before it gets out of hand, but with idiots like Farage legitimising those sentiments it becomes increasingly difficult.

Not to mention the damage it will do to tourism industry, visitors aren't going to go and spend money on a holiday in England if they fear they'll be abused because of the colour of their skin or when their different accents are heard.

On a lighter note, some advise from Greece who has already trodden the road of upsetting the EU (well EZ more than EU) applecart last year

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Mon 27 Jun 2016, 19:31

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 07:50

@ferval wrote:
Oh, come on nordmann, pitch black humour has always been an Irish speciality so don't go all po-faced on us as we try to get through this.

My mistake - I hadn't realised that xenophobia was a part of the bereavement process. Silly me.

Temp wrote:
As all honest people will admit, there are hateful thugs and louts in every nation.

I agree. It's very few countries however that give them a political mandate, even accidentally. As a pitch black Irish humourist I know only too well what happens when they do.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 08:53

All humour - black or otherwise - aside, may I ask a serious question? Where does Russia stand in all this? Britain traditionally has held the balance of power in Europe: is that true again? We are, after all, the fifth military power in the world. Or is the mention of Britain and power of any kind now simply laughable? Europe is very afraid - with good cause - of the might of Russia. That bear is still huge and terrifying.
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 09:33

After a campaign scarred by bigotry, it has become OK to be a racist in Britain.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/campaign-bigotry-racist-britain-leave-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw



It seems to be the way things are heading unfortunately.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 09:59

@Islanddawn wrote:
After a campaign scarred by bigotry, it has become OK to be a racist in Britain.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/campaign-bigotry-racist-britain-leave-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw



It seems to be the way things are heading unfortunately.


No, it has not become "OK" to be racist in Britain. The article is actually a rather more balanced analysis than that emotive statement would suggest. From the article:


To be clear, I’m not saying that the 17 million Britons who turned out to vote leave are racist; and there are genuine concerns about the pressures from migration. Further, it’s clear last Thursday’s vote took in issues other than migration or Europe: extractive elites in politics, business and finance; a badly lopsided economy; a state that stuffs London while it starves the rest of the nation.

One could be forgiven for thinking that a lot of people - even in this little community - hate the English. But I am sure that too is an unbalanced and emotive assertion. At least I hope it is.
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:02

@ferval wrote:
I'm intrigued by difference across the border in voting results - what's that all about? We're not richer, better educated, more intelligent and on average younger up here, are we?


I've been thinking on this over the last few days and concluded that the Scots and N Irish have not lost sight of who it is to blame for the mess the UK finds itself in. Whilst the English and Welsh disenfranchised of society are busily blaming everyone else but themselves (in this case immigrants and the EU) for their own governments years of failure to address their needs and indeed, the years of their own governments failure to be effective within the EU itself. In a massive vote against the establishment, they've mistakingly and blindly gone ahead and picked the wrong establishment which is going to be, and has already begun to be, hugely counterproductive.

How many of those who voted for Brexit have never bothered to vote in their entire lives until last week? Have never been particularly interested in politics other than what has been shoved under their noses by the tabloid press? I'd be interested to see a breakdown of that. It seems that years of voter apathy and complacency also plays its part because the bottom line is that the population is failing itself by not forcing the government to address the concerns of their communities.  

I wouldn't say the Scots and N Irish are better educated or more intelligent, but I'd put forward that they are definitely better informed.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:03

@nordmann wrote:
@ferval wrote:
Oh, come on nordmann, pitch black humour has always been an Irish speciality so don't go all po-faced on us as we try to get through this.

My mistake - I hadn't realised that xenophobia was a part of the bereavement process. Silly me.

Temp wrote:
As all honest people will admit, there are hateful thugs and louts in every nation.

I agree. It's very few countries however that give them a political mandate, even accidentally. As a pitch black Irish humourist I know only too well what happens when they do.

Nordmann, I can only surmise that you are also struggling to come to terms with what has happened and that this post reflects that so I will ignore the implication that finding the contortions of the main players ridiculous is somehow xenophobic. As to 'bereavement', anger is expressed in many ways and bitter humour is just one of them and a small consolation to those who have been left feeling isolated and depressed.
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:06

@Temperance wrote:


One could be forgiven for thinking that a lot of people - even in this little community - hate the English. But I am sure that too is an unbalanced and emotive assertion. At least I hope it is.

Eh?
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:17

I spoke to a Norwegian last night who was adamant that Putin was behind the whole thing, Temp. Norwegian suspicion of Russia is probably even more pronounced than British - we share a small border which regularly produces big news stories despite its small size - and the underlying argument behind most views expressed about Russia here is that it can only benefit from instability in the rest of Europe so will do anything to foster the same. I tried to explain to the lad that in the Brexit case the British needed no assistance in that regard, and to be fair to the English in my company they heartily agreed, even more so after the final whistle blew in the football match.

What is depressing me at the moment isn't the stupidity (the older I get the more this simply seems inevitable) but the lack of a political solution being offered by any party to what is - as I have said from the beginning - a really dangerous development in so many ways that it is actually hard to quantify them. As expected there has been a good deal of British humour targeted at the participants, and that is healthy. But in this case it is not enough. And nor is it enough to expect a political solution from the politicians - a very British attitude being that "politics" is "their" job. This is one that must be resolved politically by the people themselves, and never as much as now has it been evident just how apolitical subjects are bred to be. Britain needs citizens at the moment, and there are precious few apparently around.

Britain in the last week has shown that it still can hold a balance of power. Though now it's the power of the reactionary bigot in Europe which is poised to be enhanced through Britain's exercise of its role as a fulcrum in that respect. The UK's ability to hold any kind of political balance of power has long ceased to be an actuality, and its self-assumed role as the reasonable broker in terms of general attitude has also been rather firmly quashed this year. However its new role as a beacon for the bigot seems to suit it fine as a modern replacement, or at least seems to suit a worryingly large portion of its population.

Sorry I can't be less po-faced. It's what despair does to one.

EDIT: I see a flurry of posts have arrived while I wrote the above - including forgiveness from ferval. As a reciprocal gesture can I add that of all the comment offered by politicians in the last week the only ones making sense are coming from your neck of the woods. While down south the commentary can be summed up as a shell-shocked "what the f'ck have we done?????" up north it's been more a case of "ok, what do we do now?". And they're even answering the question too.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 10:48

@Islanddawn wrote:
@ferval wrote:
I'm intrigued by difference across the border in voting results - what's that all about? We're not richer, better educated, more intelligent and on average younger up here, are we?


I've been thinking on this over the last few days and concluded that the Scots and N Irish have not lost sight of who it is to blame for the mess the UK finds itself in.....

I wouldn't say the Scots and N Irish are better educated or more intelligent, but I'd put forward that they are definitely better informed.

.... I've been discussing the the whole debacle over the past few days with a range of people from France, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Sweden .... and I do get a consistent message that while they often feel the EU is over-bloated and bureaucratic, and a gravy-train for a select few ... they do not generally see the EU as the direct cause of their current woes (about employment, immigration, ITTP, big business, the economy etc ... the same basic things that worry British people). These problems they all clearly identify as matters for their respective governments to deal with as appropriate to their own countries. There is also an actual sense of popular ownship of the EU, that I would imagine is rather rarer in Britain, in that they see the EU much like the UN, as beneficial albeit in a rather idealistic way, and they all essentially consider themselves to a greater or lesser extent as European citizens, perhaps in part because a lot of them are already living in decentralized or federal states (France for instance is subdivided into a dozen roughly equal-sized regions each with their own devolved powers). As I say their ire is usually reserved for their own local or national governments.

And all is not of course sweetness and harmony in Europe. In France we still have strikes and rioting but it is directed, quite correctly, solely at Hollande's government's attempt to change labour and employment laws. There are concerns about the costs of immigration but that is again effectively controlled by the French government: no one, French citizen or EU migrant gets any social security or health care until you've been paying into the system for five years (that's probably one big reason why the migrants at Calais want to get to England). There's also a widespread concern that the current state of emergency (against terrorism), with thousands of armed troops on the streets, risks being manipulated to make it easier for the government to suppress demonstrations and apprehend agitators ... and that does not sit well with most French. (Obviously the troops are not being used to police demonstrations but one should remember that unlike the UK, the French gendarmerie are actually part of the armed forces and so while under the direct control of the Ministry of the Interior they are adminisratively controlled by the Ministry of Defence). And of course like the UK we are seeing the Front Nationale party rising on the back of general dissatisfcation with the government and with them there is now starting to be a shift towards blaming the EU and demands to Frexit, although I'm not at all sure that that demand is very widely approved of.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:08

@Islanddawn wrote:
@Temperance wrote:


One could be forgiven for thinking that a lot of people - even in this little community - hate the English. But I am sure that too is an unbalanced and emotive assertion. At least I hope it is.

Eh?

Eh? from me too. I was conceived in England, and the Garden of England at that, so I have much to thank that country for.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:19

Maybe it was my little rant ... although I hope it was clear that it was because I feel my loyalties are now divided. While it desparately upsets me to see the UK in this mess ... another part of me, selfishly concerned for my interests, wants the EU to act firmly against the UK to defend itself from damage. And since the UK, right from the date of its joining, has continually tried to opt out and get preferential treatment, then maybe it should just go. But that comment is of course aimed at Britain or England as a whole rather than any individual.
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:31

@Meles meles wrote:
@Islanddawn wrote:
@ferval wrote:
I'm intrigued by difference across the border in voting results - what's that all about? We're not richer, better educated, more intelligent and on average younger up here, are we?


I've been thinking on this over the last few days and concluded that the Scots and N Irish have not lost sight of who it is to blame for the mess the UK finds itself in.....

I wouldn't say the Scots and N Irish are better educated or more intelligent, but I'd put forward that they are definitely better informed.

.... I've been discussing the the whole debacle over the past few days with a range of people from France, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Sweden .... and I do get a consistent message that while they often feel the EU is over-bloated and bureaucratic, and a gravy-train for a select few ... they do not generally see the EU as the direct cause of their current woes (about employment, immigration, ITTP, big business, the economy etc ... the same basic things that worry British people). These problems they all clearly identify as matters for their respective governments to deal with as appropriate to their own countries. There is also an actual sense of popular ownship of the EU, that I would imagine is rather rarer in Britain, in that they see the EU much like the UN, as beneficial albeit in a rather idealistic way, and they all essentially consider themselves to a greater or lesser extent as European citizens, perhaps in part because a lot of them are already living in decentralized or federal states (France for instance is subdivided into a dozen roughly equal-sized regions each with their own devolved powers). As I say their ire is usually reserved for their own local or national governments.

Exactly, many British see the EU as some supranatural undemocratic organisation (or maybe that is just because it fits with the EU to blame for all rhetoric?) that is unanswereable to everyone and everything. When it couldn't be further from the truth, the EU is merely a treaty of 28 member states and can only ever be as good or bad as those individual member states allow it to be. And that includes the UK, the EU's problems and failings are as much the fault of the UK as they are of every other member state.

And once again this is the failure of the UK government (and press) to properly inform the public. For too many decades the EU have been the favoured scapegoat of politicians for their own inadequacies. And now they are in complete amazement and disarray because the majority have been so easily fooled by a handful of dispicable opportunists and wonder why.


Last edited by Islanddawn on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:40; edited 1 time in total
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:38

@ferval wrote:
@Islanddawn wrote:
@Temperance wrote:


One could be forgiven for thinking that a lot of people - even in this little community - hate the English. But I am sure that too is an unbalanced and emotive assertion. At least I hope it is.

Eh?

Eh? from me too. I was conceived in England, and the Garden of England at that, so I have much to thank that country for.

My grandparents were English, couldn't hate the English if someone paid me. An impossibility.

I'm sure I was conceived under the cover of both darkness and the blankets, in the proper Catholic manner. With me Mum clutching the rosary beads into the bargain..... Smile
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 11:57

The charge that the EU is undemocratic is particularly ironic at the moment when Boris Johnson (or one of the other stooges) could become Prime Minister just on the say so of Conservative party colleagues following a referendum which had nothing to say about who should be PM. Boris Johnson isn't even an elected member of Parliament. And of course more generally the UK's upper house is partly composed of members there only by hereditary right or because they are senior figures in the State religion.
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 12:19

Sadly he is an MP, for Uxbridge.

We are supposed to be a representative democracy vesting power in our MPs to vote according to their view of what is in the best interests of the constituents so the 400+ MPs who are in favour of Remain should grow a pair and do just that.
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Vizzer
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 13:27

@Meles meles wrote:
Boris Johnson isn't even an elected member of Parliament.

Boris Johnson has been MP for Uxbridge & South Ruislip for over a year now.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 14:11

Oops ... and there was me going on about people's ignorance of politics. Embarassed
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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 14:37

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 14:56

I trust the constituents of Uxbridge and South Ruislip are satisfied with their MP's representation of their interests at Westminster. He polls pretty low in the attendance stakes there. Not that he has much incentive to turn up much, it seems, what with all his extra mural activities. Here's his official payments breakdown for the last 12 months (I'm sure I could knock up an article or two for the Daily Telegraph myself for the kind of dosh they're apparently dishing out!). Wonder what the upcoming £80,000 book is about too ... (not)

1. Employment and earnings
Payments received as Mayor of London from Greater London Authority, City Hall, The Queen's Walk, London SE1 2AA. Hours: full time. (Registered 06 June 2015)
28 May 2015, received £5,791.22. (Registered 06 June 2015)
26 June 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 10 July 2015)
28 July 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 08 October 2015)
28 August 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 08 October 2015)
28 September 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 08 October 2015)
28 October 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 11 November 2015)
28 November 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 03 December 2015)
28 December 2015, received £3,982.50. (Registered 11 January 2016)
28 January 2016, received £3,982.50. (Registered 12 February 2016)
28 March 2016, received £3,982.50. (Registered 25 April 2016)
26 February 2016, received £3,982.50. (Registered 26 April 2016)
28 April 2016, received £3,982.50. (Registered 06 June 2016)

13 May 2015, received £22,916.66 for writing a column for the Daily Telegraph. Address of payer: Telegraph Media Group Ltd, 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0DT. Hours: 10 hrs. (Registered 06 June 2015)

Payments from Hodder and Stoughton UK, Carmelite House, 50 Victoria Embankment, London EC4Y 0DZ, via United Agents, 12-26 Lexington St, London W1F 0LE:
31 May 2015, received advance of £88,000 for book as yet unwritten. Hours: none as yet. (Registered 06 June 2015)
14 May 2015, received £1,231.31 for sale of Chinese subrights for book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 06 June 2015)
11 June 2015, received £494.52 for sale of Hungarian subrights for book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 10 July 2015)
2 July 2015, I received £15,805.52 for advance on paperback publication of book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 13 July 2015)
11 August 2015, received £26,653.31 for sale of Dutch, Czech, Bulgarian and US subrights for book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 01 October 2015)
29 September 2015, received £31,343.33 for advance on paperback publication of book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 November 2015)
30 September 2015, received £96,673.02 for royalties for book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 November 2015)
29 October 2015, received £9,981 for advance on paperback publication of book not yet written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 November 2015)
12 November 2015, received £2.676.41 for sale of Spanish sub-rights for book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 03 December 2015)
15 December 2015, received £2,339.20 for Danish advance on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 January 2016)
15 December 2015, received £9,512.15 for US advance on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 January 2016)
12 January 2016, received £14,557.46 for German, Brazilian and Portuguese advance on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 12 February 2016)
15 March 2016, received £3,158.37 for French subrights on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 25 April 2016)
24 March 2016, received £27,011.45 for royalties on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 25 April 2016)
26 April 2016, received £320.35 for royalties on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 06 June 2016)
Until further notice, from June 2015 I receive £22,916.66 a month for writing articles for the Telegraph Media Group Ltd, 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0DT. Hours: 10 hrs a month. (Registered 13 July 2015)
Payments from Harper and Collins UK, 1 London Bridge Street, London, SE1 9GF via United Agents, 12-26 Lexington St, London W1F 0LE:
30 September 2015, received £631.31 for royalties on books already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 11 November 2015)
17 March 2016, received £59.57 for royalties on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 25 April 2016)
27 March 2016, received £180.85 for royalties on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 06 June 2016)
27 March 2016, received £330.87 for royalties on book already written. Hours: no additional hours. (Registered 06 June 2016)
2. (a) Support linked to an MP but received by a local party organisation or indirectly via a central party organisation
Name of donor: Johan Christofferson
Address of donor: private

Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: £20,000

Donor status: individual

(Registered 06 June 2015)
Name of donor: International Group Ltd
Address of donor: 22 Station Road, Gerrards Cross, SL9 8EL

Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: £5,000

Donor status: company, registration no 01330368

(Registered 06 June 2015)
Name of donor: Peter Dubens
Address of donor: private

Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: £10,000

Donor status: individual

(Registered 06 June 2015)
Name of donor: Dr James Hay
Address of donor: private

Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: £10,000

Donor status: individual

(Registered 06 June 2015)
Name of donor: Investors in Private Capital Ltd
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Islanddawn
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 15:38

@ferval wrote:
Let's hear it for plucky little Belgium. Well said sir.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-eu-referendum-belgian-prime-minister-ridicules-ukip-leader-lying-in-campaign-a7107361.html

while in contrast:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-scottish-mep-alyn-smith-standing-ovation-in-european-parliament-speech-scotland-a7107106.html


Ah thanks ferval, I was just going over to UTubby to look for those videos.

I saw some excerpts of Farage on BBC World this morning, and was most annoyed because I was very interested to hear what Alyn Smith had to say but the Beeb cut him off! Isn't Scotland not a member of the UK anymore? Are we only are supposed to hear what English MEPs have to say?

Can't stand Guy Verhofstadt btw, aside from being a crooked as a dogs hind leg, he makes a habit of this sort of thing and is every bit as grandstanding and opportunistic as Farage. But it will be good to see Farage get a taste of his own medicine all the same.

Edit. And Guy Verhofstadt is just as bad as Boris Blowjob at raking it in on the side.
http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62514
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 17:17

Full Verhofstadt speach




Full Farage




Alyn Smith


Juncker

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 20:01

@Islanddawn wrote:
@ferval wrote:
Let's hear it for plucky little Belgium. Well said sir.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-nigel-farage-eu-referendum-belgian-prime-minister-ridicules-ukip-leader-lying-in-campaign-a7107361.html

while in contrast:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-scottish-mep-alyn-smith-standing-ovation-in-european-parliament-speech-scotland-a7107106.html


Ah thanks ferval, I was just going over to UTubby to look for those videos.

I saw some excerpts of Farage on BBC World this morning, and was most annoyed because I was very interested to hear what Alyn Smith had to say but the Beeb cut him off! Isn't Scotland not a member of the UK anymore? Are we only are supposed to hear what English MEPs have to say?

Can't stand Guy Verhofstadt btw, aside from being a crooked as a dogs hind leg, he makes a habit of this sort of thing and is every bit as grandstanding and opportunistic as Farage. But it will be good to see Farage get a taste of his own medicine all the same.

Edit. And Guy Verhofstadt is just as bad as Boris Blowjob at raking it in on the side.
http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62514

"Can't stand Guy Verhofstadt btw, aside from being a crooked as a dogs hind leg, he makes a habit of this sort of thing and is every bit as grandstanding and opportunistic as Farage. But it will be good to see Farage get a taste of his own medicine all the same."

You are right Islanddawn...he got Prime Minister due to the dioxine scandal in Belgium on the back of the Christian -Democrat Prime Minister because it happened coincidentally under their government...
As an Euro parlementarian he was the first, for whatever reason, to appear in the besieged Ukraine during the population's revolt among the rebels (what population and what rebels is also a question?)...
But there are more politicians like him...he is perhaps not an exception looking for "opportunities"...But i don't know Farage or Boris enough to make any comparaisons...
BTW your last URL don't work on my browser...it says "this page cannot be reproduced"...

Kind regards from your Belgian friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 20:37

Farage in his speech haraging the European Parliament said:
"I said that I wanted to lead a campaign go get Britain out of the European Union, you all laughed at me. Well, I have to say, you’re not laughing now, are you?"

Surely that was a deliberate echo of Hitler's 1933 victory speech when the National Socialists won the majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was appointed Chancellor:
"Und ich glaube nicht, dass die Gegner, die damals noch gelacht haben, heute auch noch lachen."
(the opponents who laughed at me are not laughing now).

Perhaps I'm over-reacting, but things in Britain are just starting to look a bit like they were in Germany and Italy in the early 1930s.


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 20:45

"Boris Blowjob" - you've really brought a smile to my face, ID.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Tue 28 Jun 2016, 21:58

Had you noticed that Nigel was flying his little Union flag upside down? Flown like that it is generally accepted to be a distress signal.

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 29 Jun 2016, 09:21

@PaulRyckier wrote:

BTW your last URL don't work on my browser...it says "this page cannot be reproduced"...

Kind regards from your Belgian friend Paul.


Hi Paul,

Try googling -  The Press Project, Money on the side and lots of it for Guy Verhofstadt. And see if you can get in that way,
I'm not sure why you can't access it as the link works fine for me.

T.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 29 Jun 2016, 15:36

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 29 Jun 2016, 16:00

Very drôle ... and I apologise and concede that I did unfortunately invoke Godwin's Law when I compared yesterday's Farage speech ("...you're not laughing now"), to Hitler's in January 1933 ("... you're not laughing now") when the latter unexpectedly won the German general election and became Chancellor. Mea culpa.

I liked the term "dickweasel" in that youtube ... I shall tuck it away in the memory along with "cockwomble", another term I have just learned courtesy of current news reporting, ... to be used rarely, carefully and somewhat judiciously, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Wed 29 Jun 2016, 17:16

Oh God, I'm so conflicted. Of course I really want to see the UK come out of this as well as possible but on the other hand I really, really can't help wanting the EU to dig in its collective heels and demand every last little blood soaked shred of flesh to truly screw the bastards who got us into this mess and whichever egomaniac takes over after the leadership election.

It's the next stage of grief I expect - after anger comes the lust for revenge.........
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:10

On the eve of 100th anniversary of the Somme, the arguments around economics and immigration are shown up to be trivial and ultimately inconsequential in the larger context. My complaint about the Remain campaign was always largely concerned with its focus on short-termism and national sef interest. There was an absolute lack of vision but I still voted to stay because of the idea of Europe, united and interconnected, as a positive force for civilised cooperation.

Tomorrow at the various commemorations many of the main players on either side will appear, grim faced and spouting platitudes. May their weasel words choke them as they struggle to maintain an approptiately  solemn demeanour while their minds are consumed by calculations as to how to fulfill their personal ambitions.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:49

Temperance (on 22 June) wrote:

 I hope MM will have a suitable dish for us on 24th June 2016 - whichever way it goes.


I've finally thought of something suitable: Eton Mess Wink  ... small pieces of broken hard-baked meringue mixed with whipped cream and split strawberries.

It's usually served at prize-giving day at Eton College in June, as well as of course at events like Wimbledon and the Henley Regatta. The earliest reference to it in the OED is from 1896, when A. H. Beavan's 'Marlborough House & its Occupants' refers to it as being served at a Royal party. It seems that originally it may have been made with bananas, and was essentially just a mixture of these (or the strawberries) and cream or ice-cream. At some time (probably in the 1930’s), broken up meringues were mixed with the cream, and spirits such as Kirsch are also sometimes added ... and this is now the "traditional" recipe.

Recipe is not quite the right word, it is more of an assembly really. Just take approximately equal amounts of strawberries and cream, and fold them together with the broken up pieces of meringue – and serve immediately.


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:53

I wonder what Malcolm Tucker would make of it.


"It's an Omnishambles, a *******!!!!!! Omnishambles"
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:08

This debacle could provide the substance for a whole new series, or three, of "Yes Prime Minister". Despite this episode being from 1988 some of the themes are particularly relevant today:

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 15:33

Malcolm T couldn't find expletives inventively obscene enough to adequately describe the goings-on down south. Is there no kevlar strong enough to protect leaders and putative leaders of the Tories and Labour from their own side? Is Sarah Vine (Mrs Gove) really Gruoch Macbeth reincarnated? Will the next PM or opposition leader be the last man (or woman) left standing? It's getting like the last scene in Hamlet - bodies everywhere but a singular lack of anyone wishing them any rest.
And what is it about all these men who, having been born in Scotland, go off to grow up elsewhere and become an embarrassment? So far I can think in the recent years of Tony Blair, Ian Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and now there's this Steven Crabb guy, the one with the funny beard.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 16:22

.... don't forget Gordon Brown.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 16:53

Alas, poor Boris....


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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Thu 30 Jun 2016, 17:53

A script which would have been rejected by the Yes Minister lads out of hand - as humour goes it is only that which might be derived from seeing a few remaining rats of an intellectually challenged nature devour each other in the hope that one survivor can be deemed leader of the rat-pack on the ship, as she slowly sinks.

Jim Hacker would have been with the ones who are rapidly learning to swim.

Meanwhile, back amongst those locked into third class below the plimsoll line ...

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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 01 Jul 2016, 09:39

A good "summary" from today's Financial Times:

"So, let me get this straight... the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they'd all done nothing to help them. Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader.

Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead. Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. 

Clear?"
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Fri 01 Jul 2016, 14:55

This is brilliant. Roadmap plan for the Uk departure from the EU.

...... http://thebrexitplan.com/
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 02 Jul 2016, 11:06

Well, I've worked through the stages,  denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, and have finally arrived at acceptance - acceptance that, whatever happens, we're f*cked.

Just to put the cherry on the top, it's the Orange Walk in Glasgow today and half the streets in town are closed - does anyone know of a vacant cave somewhere for me to occupy?
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 02 Jul 2016, 11:21

Plenty of caves here on our island ferval and you'd be most welcome..  Smile   and I can offer you the added advantage that as we were stuffed 6 years ago that we're all well and truely over the various stages of grief and just stick two fingers up at any more bad news and happily get on with life. There comes a point when one can't fall and further and that can be quite liberating, in fact.
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PostSubject: Re: The Elephant in the Room.   Sat 02 Jul 2016, 11:46

Thank you ID and since we have just been told that an independent Scotland would be like Greece without sunshine I shall seriously consider going for the real thing. How much are fags and a decent bottle of red these days?
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