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 The 'Jesus is a myth' myth

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Wed 23 Mar 2016, 12:02

Well, if it's the preservation of the KJV language you're after you'll even find Richard D. on your side, I'd say.

I don't get the "snobby elitism" thing. It's a derogatory way of referring to people who hold to the rather basic and self-evident concept that some people are simply just better, cleverer and more likely to contribute something worthwhile to the common good than others. When you think about it (and especially if such an accusation is made by a so-called Christian) without this being the case then they wouldn't have a religion at all.

Actually there's a bit of the narrative that is sorely lacking too and would have helped the story (and indeed the myth) along nicely; the bit where all the other local carpentry apprentices criticise Josh for going all snobby elitist on them on their tea breaks, when all they want is to discuss how Maccabee Haifa fared at the weekend and Mary M's knockers, while he is intent on presenting his latest ideas regarding the moral consequences of metaphysical belief.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Wed 23 Mar 2016, 14:48

An earlier Judas who was not keen on Romans;

Judas of Galilee

The Disciple Simon is described as a Zealot. Perhaps Galilee was a centre for anti-Roman feeling.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Wed 23 Mar 2016, 15:14

@Triceratops wrote:
An earlier Judas who was not keen on Romans;

Judas of Galilee

The Disciple Simon is described as a Zealot. Perhaps Galilee was a centre for anti-Roman feeling.

Galilee was an absolute hotbed of insurrection, Trike.

Josephus, who was of Galilean descent himself, wrote, “...the Galilaeans are fighters from the cradle and at all times numerous, and never has cowardice afflicted the men or a declining population the country” (Jos. War, Exc. II, G.A. Williamson tr.).

The Galileans were to the Roman Empire what the Irish were to the British Empire. I think the average Roman administrator lived in dread of being sent to Judea, the neighbouring province. Galilee remained a client state under Herod Antipas (he was the son of Herod the Great and became became Tetrarch of Galilee in 4BC) - that's why Pilate tried to get rid of the Jesus problem by handing the Nazarene over to Herod (who was in Jerusalem at the time). Ploy didn't work, as we all know, and Herod sent him back. I don't think any administrator - Roman or Jew - could cope. They all resorted to extreme brutality to keep things reasonably under control. It must have been a nightmare trying to govern out there.  

The war that broke out in 66C.E. ended in annihilation for the Jewish people. In 70C.E. the Romans lost all patience - not that they had had much anyway - and showed the world what happened when you took on Rome and lost. They destroyed the Temple, burnt Jerusalem and lay waste the entire land. Thousands of men, women and children died. It was after this terrible event that - although the exact dates are uncertain - the Gospels were written. The rest - myth or no myth - is history. It is a miracle that out of the ashes, the story of an obscure Galilean tekton (the Greek word means carpenter or builder or, as some have suggested recently, learned/wise one) survived; but survive it did. And that no one - however troubled - can deny.


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Dirk Marinus
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Wed 23 Mar 2016, 16:57

@Temperance wrote:
..............There are some cracking characters - in both the New and Old Testaments - characters who live on in a remarkable way.

Pilate is a supreme example, as, of course, is Peter; not to mention Moses and Joseph and Job and Sarah and...and...and... Even that mysterious, fleeting, naked boy who ran away into the night from Gethsemane (Mark's Gospel). What a brilliant little touch that was.

...............



Yes there are indeed some cracking figures:

  Methusela died aged 969 years

 Noah, died 350 years after the flood aged 950 years
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Wed 23 Mar 2016, 17:08

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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 06:35

@nordmann wrote:
Well, if it's the preservation of the KJV language you're after you'll even find Richard D. on your side, I'd say.


I want more than that, nordmann. But this is the last place to try to explain that. Please note that I said:


I wrote:
The language is so beautiful, and the meaning so profound and so important - but yes, some people do make complete and utter nonsense of it all; and of what he - and so many others - died for.

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ferval
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 11:37

@Temperance wrote:
So should I quit - stop worrying and enjoy my life, as the Dawkins bus advert advised - or keep fighting (fight the Bell-End Brigade, I mean) for my version of truth? Does anyone care anyway?





Poor Tyndale. We let him - and the ploughboys - down if we do give up. The language is so beautiful, and the meaning so profound and so important - but yes, some people do make complete and utter nonsense of it all; and of what he - and so many others - died for. It sickens me.

But some would say that's just my elitist snobbery...

No, don't give up and what's more the notion that not believing in God means you can stop worrying is facile.

I may not share your belief but I think I share many of your values and what's wrong wrong with elitism anyway? I definitely agree about the KJV language; I quoted Leviticus at my husband's funeral and had the 23rd psalm. (although that's compulsory at a Scottish funeral)

Did you perchance see this the other night?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b075634m/the-battle-for-christianity

It's enough for me to think, More power to your traditional C of E elbow and that's from a presbyterian atheist.  These people scare and repulse me in equal measure: all that fervid intensity and those huge gatherings which seem to be a cross between a rave and a Nuremberg rally and the smug, unquestioning certainty. Even their 'good works' seem somehow tainted.  
I can cope with An Island Parish from Unst though,
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 12:54

Yipee, I have a signal!

Aye, ferv, that smug certainty gets to me too - so then does smug dismissal and denial and that's the reason why I get tangled here from time to time. (Temps, you say the Romans existed? you are sure? is it because you believe what they wrote of themselves? is that acceptable on this site? Christians don't seem to be able to use the same notion. But then I always did grasp the right end of the stick..... I think. Like the Cheshire cat, my signal fades again. Is this a savage internet ploy?
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 13:57

I've only got one book on this subject, based on a Channel 4 documentary;




Scanning through it, Galilee was comparatively new to Judaism, only being converted (forcibly) a generation prior to the arrival of the Romans.

Luke 13:1
" Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices."
Clearly, some disturbance or other had occurred involving other Galileans.

They also had a distinctive accent, the Judean "Eleazar" becomes the Galilean "Lazur", Latinized as "Lazarus"


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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 14:15

Galilee added to Judea by Aristobulus I, 104/103BC


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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Thu 24 Mar 2016, 15:58

@Priscilla wrote:
Yipee, I have a signal!

Aye, ferv, that smug certainty gets to me too - so then does smug dismissal and denial and that's the reason why I get tangled here from time to time. (Temps, you say the Romans existed? you are sure? is it because you believe what they wrote of themselves? is that acceptable on this site? Christians don't seem to be able to use the same notion. But then I always did grasp the right end of the stick..... I think. Like the Cheshire cat, my signal fades again. Is this a savage internet ploy?

When we read what the Romans wrote about themselves we can be sure most of it is a relatively accurate and factual record of what they believed to be true, including for example that the foundation of Rome by wolf-reared twins Romulus and Remus was the opening stanza to a cherished myth explaining Roman provenance, and one moreover that probably contained elements based loosely on historical events mixed into the blend. So you see, Christians and Romans are in fact afforded the same capacity to embellish "notions" when creating myth. However when the same Romans, through their writings, demand we accept this myth to be a completely factual account we of course intelligently demur, as we should with any such demand.

I believe you may still be somewhat "tangled", alas.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Fri 25 Mar 2016, 12:04

This was mentioned over on the BBC PoV Board;

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Fri 25 Mar 2016, 12:51

We linked to the original, Trike, on a more relevant thread back in April.

Marxism

Gaughan's song is a good riposte to all who rather naively claim in recent times that "Jesus was the original Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Hippy" (take your pick).

However discussing Jesus's (or Judas's) presumed political outlook gets us no nearer discerning actual history from mythological construct in the New Testament, at least not without way more supposition than the narrative strictly allows to be made safely. Discussing Galilee as a political region on the other hand does tend to support the view that the gospels are myth rather than serious history. The region's well attested long-standing exposure to Phoenician and Hellenic influences, which had seriously distinguished it culturally and indeed religiously from its southern neighbours by the time of the Roman occupation, is rather glossed over or ignored in the extant narrative. This crucial aspect to the education and forming of any significant person from the region is not explored in the narrative, even though several key personnel originate there.

A continuing Christian reluctance to acknowledge these non-Jewish influences which might have played such a crucial role in the Christian departure from what was then mainstream Mosaic monotheist theology is reflected in the (Franciscan funded) excavation and conservation of the ruins of the "White Synagogue" in Capernaum, a town that plays such a significant role in the narrative of the Christian myth. The synagogue's history is well presented by its Franciscan curators to visitors, from its original construction by a gentile to its ultimate destruction at the time of Islamic takeover of the region, though apparently not by Moslems but by Christians. Its fundamentally Greek architectural style and choice of materials in its construction is not however alluded to at all.

This determination to avoid acknowledgement of what are blatant and well attested influences, as evidenced by the archaeological and philological records to hand and in fact continually reinforced by further such research, is what has always most typified Christian accounts of their own early history. And while there may be many sound theological reasons supporting this omission, there are absolutely no good ones in terms of historical research that I can think of.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Sun 27 Mar 2016, 15:56

@ferval wrote:


No, don't give up and what's more the notion that not believing in God means you can stop worrying is facile.

I may not share your belief but I think I share many of your values and what's wrong wrong with elitism anyway? I definitely agree about the KJV language; I quoted Leviticus at my husband's funeral and had the 23rd psalm. (although that's compulsory at a Scottish funeral)

Did you perchance see this the other night?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b075634m/the-battle-for-christianity

It's enough for me to think, More power to your traditional C of E elbow and that's from a presbyterian atheist.  These people scare and repulse me in equal measure: all that fervid intensity and those huge gatherings which seem to be a cross between a rave and a Nuremberg rally and the smug, unquestioning certainty. Even their 'good works' seem somehow tainted.  
I can cope with An Island Parish from Unst though,


Than you for that message, ferval. It meant a lot to me when I read it earlier. I haven't watched that programme yet, but hope to tomorrow. Yes, I think we do all here share many values.

The HC lot scare and repulse me too. The C of E isn't what is used to be, but then perhaps it never was what it used to be. Perhaps I need to grow up - an embarrassing admission for a woman of my age. It's a painful process.



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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Sun 27 Mar 2016, 16:15

@nordmann wrote:

Gaughan's song is a good riposte to all who rather naively claim in recent times that "Jesus was the original Marxist/Socialist/Communist/Hippy" (take your pick).



I was the one who first suggested that over on the old Marx thread, Trike. I was referring at the time to a remark made by Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch who described Jesus of Nazareth as "a social radical". Here are some details about Professor MacCulloch from Wiki. Whatever else the man may be he is not "naïve". I may be, but he certainly ain't.

Diarmaid Ninian John MacCulloch, Kt, FSA, FRHistS, FBA (born 31 October 1951) is a British historian and academic, specialising in church history and the history of Christianity. Since 1995, he has been a fellow of St Cross College, Oxford; he was formerly the senior tutor. Since 1997, he has been Professor of the History of the Church at the University of Oxford.

Though ordained as a deacon in the Church of England, MacCulloch declined ordination to the priesthood because of the church's attitude to his homosexuality.[1] In 2009 he encapsulated the evolution of his religious beliefs: "I was brought up in the presence of the Bible, and I remember with affection what it was like to hold a dogmatic position on the statements of Christian belief. I would now describe myself as a candid friend of Christianity."[
2]

I like his description of himself as "a candid friend of Christianity". My position exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: The 'Jesus is a myth' myth   Mon 28 Mar 2016, 11:29

National Geographic's pdf on the Gospel of Judas:


Gospel of Judas pdf
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