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 Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?

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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Tue 13 Sep 2016, 15:47

There has been recorded many a great lie to fool the people - have any of them ever been beneficial?

I don't mean the sort that was used as counter propaganda as in where V1 rockets actually fell to get changes in directional aiming or reports of gas explosions to mask V2 explosions. However, there might have been many ploys of that ilk also that could do with an airing.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Wed 14 Sep 2016, 21:38

Priscilla,

difficult question you come with...

"There has been recorded many a great lie to fool the people - have any of them ever been beneficial?"

Do you mean a great lie to convince the people about a certain government policy?
And perhaps in an open society as ours it is difficult to construct a lie without somewhere a tiny escape of information, which contradicts the lie. And in an open society as ours, that tiny message becomes immediately big news and is reported all over the world.
I don't say in North Korea...and even there...along the many party ties, they "know" but for fear of their life they dare not speak...

If the above statement is correct than I have the example of the Saddam Hussein rockets. I remember that we discussed it on the old BBC board...how it was possible that the moderators allowed us...
But anyway: I commented and if I recall it well also the BBC that it was an hoax, but nevertheless Tony Blair persisted...and I seem to remember that I also commented on the suicide of a scientist, who was implemented and who refused to support the mass destruction weapon theories and he was forced to make statements contrary to his beliefs...
If you or Temperance can reveal the exact data around the case...
Benefits? The beginning of a disaster? Together with the Americans started the nightmare of Iraq and Syria?

Kind regards, Paul.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Wed 14 Sep 2016, 23:11

Aye, Paul, just that kind of situation. And so many of us were taken in. I was in a volatile environment at the time  and working among people who saw things somewhat differently. Big waves travel far on a flat beach.  
With the mobile phone era  just being born land lines were important. I was the security warden for about 60 families  on my list - relaying news about what folk could or ought not do  and like a Mexican wave, panic did the rounds. Many who could, left ,- a relief for most of us because it steadied the irrational anxiety that can override common sense and tested experience. 
This was not my first experience of staying cool in such serious situations by far, but what was difficult  about this one was taking in the bits of truth that gradually opened up. We felt then anger that our uneasy sense of justification for dicey action had been so violated - and with it came shame. 
Althoough far from the epicenter of that great lie, where I was, irreparable damage had tainted social and economic spheres with long term  and on-going consequences. 

So who or what benefited from it? That has not been exposed - or has it? Someone better informed might take up the baton on that, please.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Thu 15 Sep 2016, 23:00

I wonder if the "Duck and cover" / "Protect and survive" stuff might have been beneficial, in psychological terms, at least - along the lines of Flora Post's approbation of "The earth may burn, but we will quiver." as indicating a firmness of purpose, a clear plan in the face of a disagreeable possibility.
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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 14:41

Then there's the Brexit affair. Claims and counterclaims about lies and misleading advice are in vogue, but as I see it, we have not actually left yet so who can tell? Proof of pudding etc. Or am I being naive?
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 21:54

@Priscilla wrote:
Then there's the Brexit affair. Claims and counterclaims about lies and misleading advice are in vogue, but as I see it, we have not actually left yet so who can tell? Proof of pudding etc. Or am I being naive?
One problem about claiming almost any of this as "lies" (apart from "we send £350 million a week to Brussels") is that, as you suggest, there are few undisputed facts. Can you convincingly be described as having lied in such circumstances?
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 22:08

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
@Priscilla wrote:
Then there's the Brexit affair. Claims and counterclaims about lies and misleading advice are in vogue, but as I see it, we have not actually left yet so who can tell? Proof of pudding etc. Or am I being naive?
One problem about claiming almost any of this as "lies" (apart from "we send £350 million a week to Brussels") is that, as you suggest, there are few undisputed facts. Can you convincingly be described as having lied in such circumstances?

 
Gil as always that witty...and of course you are right...fine observator Wink ...

Your friend Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 22:20

@Priscilla wrote:
Aye, Paul, just that kind of situation. And so many of us were taken in. I was in a volatile environment at the time  and working among people who saw things somewhat differently. Big waves travel far on a flat beach.  
With the mobile phone era  just being born land lines were important. I was the security warden for about 60 families  on my list - relaying news about what folk could or ought not do  and like a Mexican wave, panic did the rounds. Many who could, left ,- a relief for most of us because it steadied the irrational anxiety that can override common sense and tested experience. 
This was not my first experience of staying cool in such serious situations by far, but what was difficult  about this one was taking in the bits of truth that gradually opened up. We felt then anger that our uneasy sense of justification for dicey action had been so violated - and with it came shame. 
Althoough far from the epicenter of that great lie, where I was, irreparable damage had tainted social and economic spheres with long term  and on-going consequences. 

So who or what benefited from it? That has not been exposed - or has it? Someone better informed might take up the baton on that, please.

Priscilla,

sought it myself on the internet...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert)


Your friend Paul.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Human Nature Study; Great White Lies and Lesser spotted Porkies - Any Benefits here?   Sun 18 Sep 2016, 10:51

@Priscilla wrote:
There has been recorded many a great lie to fool the people - have any of them ever been beneficial?

The greatest benefit to be derived from such institutional lying is normally obtained from seeing through it, a communally cathartic experience which tends to advance the society that has been lied to.

The Epitomy
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