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 Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?

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nordmann
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PostSubject: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Thu 15 Sep 2016, 13:03

What have the USSR, Biafra and the Munich Council Republic in common? Well, very little probably except of course that as countries none of them exist anymore, the first after a relatively long and eventful life, the second strangled in early childhood and the last what might be called a still-born baby in national terms. However all three were an attempt in some way to forge a national identity expressed through borders, self-government, a flag, and of course an appeal to the rest of the world to accept it on those terms.

The number of "dead" countries now exceeds the present number of "live" ones many times over. Some of these deaths could be classed as "murder by neighbour", some "suicide", some "assisted dying", and some countries - like the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg Gotha - seemed simply to wander off one day, never to be seen again. That the latter was absorbed into a unified Germany is an historical fact. That its transition from autonomy to federation was already long in progress however seems to suggest a country which used every available means at its disposal to divest itself of autonomy using whatever adjacent polity happened along into which it might be absorbed.

While many of these demises could be considered historically fortunate, if only for their neighbours' sake, some still strike one as very unfortunate indeed and their resurgence, on those rare occasions that it occurs, can be deemed a matter of general celebration. One is reminded of Rousseau's advice to the Poles as they stood poised to be carved up by belligerent and avaricious neighbours in the 18th century, just as they again were to be in the 1930s, "You are likely to be swallowed whole, hence you must take care to ensure that you are not digested". The Poles apparently (and repeatedly) took his advice and, like their Baltic cousins in the lyrical phrase of historian Norman Davies, "... years later, like the biblical Jonah, they re-emerged from the belly of the whale, gasping but intact."

However, others (many others) have not been so lucky. Are there any (my own favourite is the gloriously anti-Trumpist "Republic of the Rio Grande") which, even if for nothing other than their flag design, would be readmitted like a shot and with a warm welcome into one's own personal atlas?
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Thu 15 Sep 2016, 14:29

I remember perusing a large atlas in a public library reference section in the 1980s which still clearly marking Hyderabad out as an independent state which it had been from 1948 until absorbed by India in 1956.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Thu 15 Sep 2016, 14:42

Well the move these days seems to be towards more and smaller independent states. So how about resurrecting the Republic of Cospaia, a tiny autonomous republic between the Grand Duchy of Tuscany and the Papal States, which existed from 1440 until 1826.

According to wiki: "It unexpectedly gained independence in 1440 after Pope Eugene IV, embroiled in a struggle with the Council of Basel, made a sale of territory to the Republic of Florence. By error, a small strip of land went unmentioned in the sale treaty and its inhabitants promptly declared themselves independent. An early centre in Italy for tobacco production, Cospaia eventually evolved into a commerce haven which, in 1826, was divided between Tuscany and the Papal States. Each citizen was awarded a silver coin by the church to help convince them to continue farming tobacco. The Republic of Cospaia was almost completely anachist in its government and criminal justice system, or lack thereof. There were no jails and there was no standing army or police force within the tiny nation. There was a council of elders and a chief's family who governed at one point. They met in the Church of Annunciation for councils."
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Thu 15 Sep 2016, 22:05

@Vizzer wrote:
I remember perusing a large atlas in a public library reference section in the 1980s which still clearly marking Hyderabad out as an independent state which it had been from 1948 until absorbed by India in 1956.
Yes, there were a number of the "princely states" which remained independent until taken over by India or Pakistan. It might have been a Good Thing if Kashmir had stayed that way.

Of course, there's always this one :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZvLqZ4-8-M
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 08:15

One of the best films ever made, Gil, its genius advertised almost in the very first frame of the movie and the caption "This film is dedicated to the memory of ..." while a giant ration book is projected on to the cinema screen. The genius of course is that it was made in 1949 - a fantastic example of that which the British once took for granted as part of their personality and culture, the ability to simultaneously laugh at themselves and at life in general through a deceptively simple "gag", the point of which in other cultures would have taken a tome to communicate. It is something that has been lost, alas.

And it had Margaret Rutherford!

The film makes much of an ancient link with the Duchy of Burgundy, which actually fits the the theme of the thread quite nicely. Not the Duchy as much as the ancient Kingdom of the Burgundians, the remnants of which the Duchy would later be carved out from. A Germanic people in a Germanic Kingdom, speaking German, writing German, thinking German, and in a territory almost equivalent in size to the West Germany that we know from recent history. Then defeated by another Germanic Kingdom, the Franks. And almost entirely in what we now call France. You'd never even guess that such a history applied to the area were you to visit it today. Had the kingdom not succumbed when it did (the early 6th century) one wonders just how the cultural, political and even the religious history of Western Europe would have panned out.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 08:27

I couldn't get Gil's youtube to play but from Nord's comments I assume it was 'Passport to Pimlico' ... which immediately made me think of that other sadly lost little country, the Grand Duchy of Fenwick.

In 'The Mouse that Roared' it was Peter Sellars that played Fenwick's Grand Duchess Gloriana XIII, but in the follow up film 'The Mouse on the Moon' it's a gloriously baroque Margaret Rutherford Wink ... alongside Ron Moody, Bernard Cribbins, Terry Thomas, John Le Mesurier, Peter Sallis, Clive Dunn, Hugh Lloyd and a host of other great British comedy actors:

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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 09:33

Similar to your comments about Burgundy is the situation of Brittany. Brittany (Bretagne, Breizh, Lesser Britain) was absorbed into Roman Gaul but the region regained its independence with the decline of Rome and managed to remain independent from both the Gauls and Franks. Furthermore its mostly celtic population was boosted in the 5th century by the immigration of Britons from Wales and Cornwall. In the middle ages it was an independent kingdom of celtic people speaking a celtic language, and courted as a powerful potential ally by both England and France. But gradually it moved to being more pro-France, the language at court changed, and eventually the state became fully unified with the Kingdom of France in the early 16th century. With the French revolution the Duchy of Brittany was abolished and the region split into five administrative departments. In the 19th century the use of the Breton language was heavily suppressed. But the long period of independence and relatively late union with France still means that Brittany is quite culturally distinct from the rest of France and in many ways (such as language) is often more akin to Wales and Cornwall than to neighbouring Normandy and the Loire region. There is an independence movement but it is still nowhere close to the situation in Wales or Scotland.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 14:35

A quick interested browse for ideas, I was astonished by the number of changes in modern times, let alone the ancient. The list I saw somehow left out Israel; perhaps that was a pragmatic omission.

The way things may be headed, if the United Kingdom disunites, England itself may then  split into Wessex and Mercia - and other assorted bits round the edges. As I see it small places joined through weakness to form larger entities, willingly or by force. Now that these larger identities are found to be wanting, it's back to smaller ones..... which in turn will probably find themselves or others wanting to join together for strength. This fusion and diffusion is fascinating. I guess I am too close/thick to be able to  see a Darwinian pattern  for species survival in all of this but there probably is one.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 15:54

Israel is a country which vanished and reappeared, even if many of its immediate neighbours seemingly hanker after the former state of affairs again. In any case it is something of a special exception in the normal scheme of things when a people lose their autonomy and then reassert it. In Israel's case they also went on extreme walkabout in the interim.

One area of England which I have always thought would make sense as a separate state is Yorkshire. What surprises me however is that this has never been reflected in the historical kingdoms of England. In pre-Viking times modern Yorkshire straddled two kingdoms between which there was never much love lost. After the Vikings arrived an independent Yorkshire of sorts was established, but still only covering portions of the modern "state", along with some bits that modern Yorkshiremen would shudder to contemplate as compatriots. And yet you'd be hard put to find a denizen these days who did not assume "Yorkshire" as a fundamental part of their communal identity - for many superseding "English" or "British" by a long shot.

One vanished kingdom in England which would be fun to see re-emerge is Magonæte. I wonder how the rest of England would react if Herefordshire suddenly declared UDI? Or for that matter Herefordians, who are probably unaware for the most part that their county has a border predating not only other counties in England but even many of the other kingdoms which united to form England in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 16:39

I did not know of this either. Do not discount it happening, either. Such is the mode of thought these days. 
Whereas I can see Kent becoming Kentos again with ease ( could be migrant dominated if Calais falls) but am a tad bothered that Wessex may not accept Essex again. An independent Essex  would see me moving house, I fear. My ancestors - year dot - hail from Shropshire seems a nice quite sort of place....

If we all had to hike hack to the place of our origins (Joseph and Mary-like) to pay taxes, what an upheaval there would be, Just a thought. Ireland might make a packet! Sorry, off topic. I have a wandering sort of mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 19:03

I am doing the Hwiccans a disservice, dropping their "S". The kingdom was of course Magonsæte.

It is probably no coincidence that it was Mercia that provided much of the impetus towards unification, even if it was a Wessex king who got the ultimate credit. Not only did it find itself at the cutting edge of anti-Danish infiltration which in itself forged a common identity in opposition to the "new" newcomers, but Mercia itself - as we discussed before - derived its character and indeed its name from the fact that it itself originated as a nebulous mass of "march" lands which served as a buffer zone between established realms, in England at the time therefore a landlocked hodge podge of communities who suddenly discovered that this placed them in quite a strong position nevertheless once they got their act together both administration-wise and identity-wise, and then started getting bolshy with the neighbours, success in this venture further bolstering this development. Magonsæte was simply the first victim of this policy, it seems. Its definition was revamped to "sub kingdom" through Mercian interventions but remained intact a while longer due to the same arrangement. Northumbrian identity was re-forged and bolstered in opposition to this new big player on the scene.

The telling thing about Mercia, and one that is graphically visible if one views a series of maps indicating its extent throughout the dark ages and into the early medieval period, is that by galvanising its opponents into equally strong centralised government, its borders from that point on became malleable and elastic as it sought to hold its own in, and even dominate, the English polity. It is perhaps a worthwhile notion to bear in mind that the kingdom which probably did most to contribute to what would become an "England" is the one which at no point itself had a settled shape or size. It helps to affirm the fact that borders are secondary in terms of polity to national self-perception. As long as the latter remains galvanised the former can wax and wane, and even sometimes temporarily disappear.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 22:02

Nordmann,

"The film makes much of an ancient link with the Duchy of Burgundy, which actually fits the the theme of the thread quite nicely. Not the Duchy as much as the ancient Kingdom of the Burgundians, the remnants of which the Duchy would later be carved out from. A Germanic people in a Germanic Kingdom, speaking German, writing German, thinking German, and in a territory almost equivalent in size to the West Germany that we know from recent history. Then defeated by another Germanic Kingdom, the Franks. And almost entirely in what we now call France. You'd never even guess that such a history applied to the area were you to visit it today. Had the kingdom not succumbed when it did (the early 6th century) one wonders just how the cultural, political and even the religious history of Western Europe would have panned out."

Yes Burgundy...Some one of the Lorraine tudesque (Isleifson/Laumesfeld) and I are both on Historum and on the French Passion Histoire...we many times joke as we "from the borderland" meaning we as from the borderland between the French Kingdom and the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation...on the borders of two cultural entities in both of which we are embedded....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Burgundy



How if you look to the history of our region: The county of Flanders: what changes in half a millenium.
That Flanders don't exist anymore. It was put together under the Burgundians with the Duchy of Brabant to later form the 17 provinces of the Low Countries under Charles V. During the Dutch Revolt it was together with his neighbours separated from the North into the Spanish Southern Netherlands. Later Louis XIV carved a large chunk around Calais from the former Duchy of Flanders. And so it remained under the later Austrian rule. After the intermezzo of the French occupation it became again included in the larger entity of The Netherlands to separate again after a mere 15 years to become again an entity as the former Spanish Netherlands from 400 years before. And then after a while in that new Belgium, some in the North called it Flanders, an entity composed by the former County of Flanders depending from France, the South of the former  Duchy of Brabant depending from the HRE and the North of the former Prince Bishopric of Liège. Perhaps it is like The Netherlands calling Holland...?
What I mean by all this that some especially in the 19th century "constructed" a national narrative to support their nationalistic claims...and at the end some start to believe that they have a national feeling...the same with the Belgians, who have after all nevertheless an entity starting already under Albert and Isabella...a 420 years instead of a 130 years for the nowadays Flanders...(hope that some Flemish nationalists don't read my prose Wink )

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 22:49

But what foments a sense of national identity? Is it language related, cultural ties in common  or following leadership that appeals? Or is it  more about a  struggle among those who have inherited power - including the muscle to sustain it?
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 23:24

Ernest Gellner has written several books examining that question and his conclusion, made repeatedly for different reasons and which makes perfect sense to me, is that there is no one answer. At different times and in wildly different circumstances all of the things you mention, plus others such as a special focus on ethnicity (for whatever reason) or an historical bond between people equally subjugated by another people etc, have played what appear to be a predominant role in forging a sense of nationality or nationhood. Most often it is probably better to cite a mixture of these, but again never quite to the same degree in each individual case.

In the case of kingdoms it is sometimes easier - diverse monarchies develop into roughly similar institutions but often from wildly divergent root causes, and indeed sometimes that cause is simply the political ambition of an increasingly powerful person (who naturally assumes the role of king in the process). We see that explicitly in the bigger states forged in that manner - such as under Attila or Genghis Khan - but in fact it happened historically on umpteen occasions with less spectacular leaders forging less imperial or huge states, which in fact also historically showed a greater propensity to be perpetuated dynastically once founded in that manner.

Where it is harder to find detectable patterns, let alone common reasons, is in the demise of states and the reason so many of them disappear compared to how many survive in the very long term. You would think that having found a common cause or a common attribute strong enough for a community to define itself as such that this should in some way at least increase the resultant state's bid for longevity. But historically this is not borne out by the evidence. Some states are founded on extremely strong bonds between their citizens but fizzle out even within the same people's lifetimes. Others, such as Switzerland for example or even Belgium for that matter as Paul referred to, are born almost completely out of happenstance or others' own political expediency and yet survive through generations, often for many centuries or even longer.

Gellner refers to the state often as a "perpetual illusion" of unity - the ones lasting longest not being the ones which retain throughout the same sense of identity, but which can successfully attribute the same notion of unity to what is in effect a long process of social evolutionary change. Whether Britain survives what are now increasingly likely moves towards dissolution or not, I think you can still see Gellner's point in relation to England. In your own lifetime you have seen the character, politics and constitution in terms of its citizenry of what is "England" change radically, and this has happened throughout the country's by now lengthy existence, but throughout it has remained a recognisable entity with the name "England". Any attempt to therefore define what it is to be "English" at this point in time really can only be answered in this point of time. Once you try to retrospectively assign that identity to those who went before you find yourself immediately contradicted by the many historically distinct variants which preceded the current one. When you ask therefore what has fomented a sense of national identity in England you must ask also what fomented it in the past, and before that, and before that again, and so on back to the state's foundation. Each point in time you stop at will yield different answers. And so it is with all countries.

Hereendentthedissertation.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Fri 16 Sep 2016, 23:48

Dissertation understood - this time. So it's somewhat like a community perpetuating a myth?

The media have a hand in this in more modern times but in small communities until universal communication, a concept of identity would crystallize, I suppose. 

Until about 60 years ago, the Kaffir people in a remote vale of the Hindu Khush who believe they are descended from  Alexander's followers met very few outsiders. They still speak of Alexander (Iskander) as if it all happened within living memory. Not that any claimed any interest in joining up with Greece as far as I know.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sat 17 Sep 2016, 12:39

@Priscilla wrote:
So it's somewhat like a community perpetuating a myth?

It is tempting to think so - nationalist ideology certainly often employs the aspect of myth in which a consciously constructed intrinsic logic is made apply in order to prosecute particular theories or notions which, when examined against the actual data empirically ascertained, often reveal themselves to be fictions or artificial constructs with little substance outside of their equally meticulously constructed context. And, as with pervasive myth, personal investment in at least portions of that ideology is almost unavoidable as one navigates normal discourse and day-to-day existence, where one is repeatedly obliged to at least acknowledge its existence and role, even if one intellectually opposes both. The moment you declare your nationality, even as a passing remark for simplicity's sake in a conversation for example, you provoke - whether you appreciate it or not - the recipient of the information to deduce what they will from an entire package of suppositions which can accompany the term and which have been constructed often largely outside your or even your nation's control by many others, often over many generations, and for a myriad different reasons.

Like the Kaffirs you mention in the remote valley of the Hindu Khush, we all like to think that we exercise some basic control and ownership of the communal identity with which we associate ourselves, sufficient at least to allow us to define it and explain it to others on our own terms. What Gellen and others point out is that this in itself is a reaction to the deeper realisation that this identity is fluctuationary, contingent, unstable, and - if truth be told - often not only outside our control but firmly within the control of the "outsider".

This is most obvious when analysing racism and xenophobia (the Irish, to use an example with which I am very familar, struggled for centuries in the face of an imposed national identity that worked against them but which was by a long shot more globally prevalent and presumed definitive than any they could generate themselves). However that is just using extreme examples to highlight what is actually an inescapable dynamic when communicating national identity anyway, and occurs regardless of whether the perceived identity is negative or positive in character.

In relation to "dead" states, one would think therefore that this investment in resisting faulty perception and asserting control over positive and well-defined national identities should show a corollary with the associated political states' potential for longevity. However this is so often not the case that it is questionable whether such obsession with communal identity plays any role at all in maintaining a polity expressed in terms of a national identity. In fact it more likely explains or at least corollates with that other very familiar phenomenon - the citizen of such a state associating much more with an extremely localised identity than with that suggested by their passport.

The Kaffirs of your example also exemplify this phenomenon rather well. Politically subsumed into a nation which implies and encourages one version of communal identity, they therefore exaggerate the assumed cause and character which distinguishes them from that identity and favours their own local version. But the point I am making is that this apparent "dissent" within the construction of a nation's identity plays almost no role at all in determining the success or failure in political terms of either the larger state in which they currently reside, or even of any proposed state in the future based on their own geographical location and common self-perception. History seems to demonstrate that national identity, however strongly it is expressed or widely believed, is no guarantee that a state will survive politically.

Not that you would know this from listening to politicians ...


Last edited by nordmann on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 19:07; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Use of "myriad")
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sat 17 Sep 2016, 13:39

@Gilgamesh of Uruk wrote:
Yes, there were a number of the "princely states" which remained independent until taken over by India or Pakistan. It might have been a Good Thing if Kashmir had stayed that way.

It's quite a complex issue. The Indian invasion (of Hyderabad) actually took place in the atmosphere of heightened sectarian tensions following partition in 1947 and neither was it a bloodless or uncontested invasion. Tens of thousands died. The official annexation in 1956, therefore, was only a de jure confirmation of Hyderabad's de facto status during its 9 years of 'independence'.

What had prompted the invasion was the fact that the nizam, his government and the ruling class were generally Moslem while the peasantry was generally Hindu. The Communist Party of India was leading an armed rebellion against the nizam's regime who looked like he could well lose to them. The Congress Party government in Delhi looked on with concern at the prospect of a huge (albeit landlocked) state falling to its arch-rivals and located right in the heart of the subcontinent. Intervention was almost inevitable.

In short, Hyderabad's actual independence (and that's ignoring the princely state's existing self-governing status which it had previously enjoyed during 150 years of British suzerainty) only lasted 1 year and 1 month from August 1947 to September 1948.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sat 17 Sep 2016, 19:44

Nordmann,

"The moment you declare your nationality, even as a passing remark for simplicity's sake in a conversation for example, you provoke - whether you appreciate it or not - the recipient of the information to deduce what they will from an entire package of suppositions which can accompany the term and which have been constructed often largely outside your or even your nation's control by many others, often over many generations, and for a myriad of different reasons."

Where you have learned that excellent prose is beyond me...


And yes we discussed the theme already overhere:
https://reshistorica.historyboard.net/t921-what-is-nationalism

And in that thread I mentioned the two discussions on Historum, where there was also no consensus, while as you said the national feelings are so difficult to explore in the concepts of ethny, nation, region, nation state, "volk"...:
"And about my earlier take on "nationalism" see also:
http://historum.com/general-history/64570-early-nationalism.html
http://historum.com/general-history/88389-concept-nationhood.html"

I have the impression, Nordmann that you have even deepened your thoughts since that thread and I can only be enthusiast by that, as I completely agree with all what you said. Thanks again for these two interesting dissertations.

PS: If yo want to correct my mistake that I made in my hurry here in my message about Flanders, on the third or fourth line I wrote Duchy of Flanders, of course it has to be County of Flanders...And in the other cases I wrote it right... Embarassed

PPS: (the Temperance way)
You wrote: "Hereendentthedissertation" Has that not to be "Hereendsthedissertation"?

PPS: If I once have the opportunity to correct, be it on a tiny way,your for ages excellent prose, it is normal that you appreciate that I couldn't resist...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sat 17 Sep 2016, 22:38

So who's going to explain about 'eth' to Paul? One of you non-church goers - go on!. Te He.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sat 17 Sep 2016, 22:55

Oh no - not me. I'll leave that thorny problem to those who can pin a tael on a z. I'm just going to rune for cover.

Suppose Paul is almost right - by analogy with "here endeth the first lesson". Always preferred "here endeth the second lesson" myself, FWIW. Especially on a Wednesday. That meant we had survived double maths and reached break.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Sun 18 Sep 2016, 10:15

@Priscilla wrote:
So who's going to explain about 'eth' to Paul? One of you non-church goers - go on!. Te He.

Paul, I refer you to Chapter 22, Verse 3 of the Book of Asterix ...

The Bible

PS. I see I spelt (in Norwegian the past tense of "to play") it wrong anyway, and it should have been "Hereendeththelesson". Enda et spill jeg har spelt helt feilt, igjen ...

PPS. (It takes a little while to download but it's worth the wait)
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Mon 19 Sep 2016, 21:29

Nordmann, Gil and Priscilla,

now I see...and I found it myself on the internet!!
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/endeth

And has it something to do with the Dutch: "En hier eind-igt de eerste les" or even in German: "Und hier end-et die erste Stunde"

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Mon 19 Sep 2016, 21:48

I'd like to enter a plea for the return of Doggerland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/archaeology/11836627/British-Atlantis-archaeologists-begin-exploring-lost-world-of-Doggerland.html

If only to confound Brexiteers and other Euroseptics.
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Tue 20 Sep 2016, 08:04

Apparently you can blame Norway for losing Doggerland:

The 6,100 BCE Tsunami
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Tue 20 Sep 2016, 08:50

We may be about to lose the first country to seas rising due to climate change. A Tuvalu resident recently was denied refugee status into New Zealand when he asked for it on those grounds.  I think the time is fast approaching when NZ will need to take in all the residents of Tuvalu, just over 10,000.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: Vanished Countries - any we'd like back?   Tue 20 Sep 2016, 16:59

@nordmann wrote:
@Priscilla wrote:
So who's going to explain about 'eth' to Paul? One of you non-church goers - go on!. Te He.

Paul, I refer you to Chapter 22, Verse 3 of the Book of Asterix ...

The Bible

PS. I see I spelt (in Norwegian the past tense of "to play") it wrong anyway, and it should have been "Hereendeththelesson". Enda et spill jeg har spelt helt feilt, igjen ...

PPS. (It takes a little while to download but it's worth the wait)


Thank you for this reference [ought this here - according to Priscilla - to be spelled 'reverence'?] to this Asterician Bible, much appreciated.

A comparison of the Danish editions of 'Asterix in Britain', show the sentence 'Here's a toast to our Gallic friends/brothers' [I don't recall which, and am presently too lazy to check] 1st ed. with the meaning of 'toast' as the greeting - a raised cup - and in the 2nd a raised piece of bread.
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