A discussion forum for history enthusiasts everywhere
 
HomeHome  Recent ActivityRecent Activity  FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  SearchSearch  

Share | 
 

 The History of Sexual Exploitation

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
PaulRyckier
Censura


Posts : 2067
Join date : 2012-01-01

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Sun 26 Nov 2017, 22:28

@ferval wrote:
Oh dear, Paul, that post worries me. It suggests that the classic method of control in an abusive relationship - the verbal destruction of self esteem and denigration that leaves the abused partner not only utterly helpless but feeling responsible for, and deserving of, that treatment - is something trivial and not worthy of just as much condemnation as physical cruelty.
How to prove? Obviously the testimony of a psychiatrist, or more likely a psychologist, a therapist, a counsellor or a social worker, as to the victim's mental state is indeed evidence and vital as so often this campaign is carried out in private and the abused has been systematically distanced from friends and family. This, I'm afraid, is really not rare, at least in its less extreme forms, but still there are the suicides, the substance abuse, the breakdowns that result. These wounds take longer to heal than those of the body.

You will, I hope, notice that I have not attached any gender labels to the above as of course this can happen whatever the gender of those involved but, nevertheless, the traditional predominance of men with physical and economic power has meant that statistically the vast majority of abusers have been men. Which does not, of course, mean that the majority of men are abusers.

Temp, what a pity the poor wee Wilis (ha!) had to wait until they were dead to wreak revenge.



Anyway, here's Mary Beard to add a historical perspective. The Public Voice of Women.

Ferval,

of course you are right, we are in the process of working towards equality of the two sexes and in fact it may not matter what sexe a person is, he has to be treated as a human being whatever the cultural context is. And my whining? moaning? is only pointing to some collateral damage, a minor part of the process, which will perhaps when it comes to the finish will be solved as both persons can go away from each other when they want as both are acting on the same level of prosperity and mentality...but again I presume that a divorce is not a light thing from the mental point of view, especially if there are children...

And yes the mentalities are changing slow, althought in the last sixty years there is, at least overhere a quick change...I have even in my lifetime seen the change...as a student's holiday job working among the bricklayers...later seeing the attitudes in a big factory both on the workfloor and among the management, and I think that the management was even worser than the workfloor...seeing the change as a female technical representant came with the others...and the meeting afterwards in the "café" to discuss "matters" was quite another one than normal...

And now especially in the medical world, the women bosses of the men...I have seen it in the clinic when I was there the last three years on several occasions...even our Belgian police chief a woman...and nominated for chief of Europol....
But all these attitudes don't die easy...I gave on the ex-BBC the example from Peter Brown: The body and society (about the first century in Rome...he spoke about Paulus making the Christianity of Jewish origin "salonfähig" among the Romans to fit with their tradtions, which were not at all "women-friendly". And as such as the Roman-Catholics  were theaching us young boys along the Paulus traditions, where the place of the woman was a bit as in the old Rome of 1800 years before...no it were the Socialists and Liberals who stood on the barricades for the women...(although for political reasons they held up the women vote up to 1948, because they were afraid of the impact of all those silent Christian women, who would vote for the Christian party Wink , but it turned out in 1948 that the impact was minor)
But up to now it is only in the "Western world" that all these ideas are going around...if you compare with the Islam world...even nowadays Turkey...nowadays Pakistan, Afghanistan...the mayor of Djakarta (Indonesia) a Catholic was changed to a Muslim, while the Muslim party said that in a Muslim land it was only allowed to vote as a Muslim for a Muslim...India...the position of the women are many times even worser...especially since the Hindu...
I remember an example fro our factory...a woman (not from the workfloor)...married to a Muslim man...she had Always to stay in the kitchen she said, while the men were gathering and discussing in the "salon" (the first piece of a workmen's house)...she had nothing to say and is not so long after divorced...and I have other examples of my inner circle...not as from your examples that the "western man" is that much better... 


Ferval, I read your link from: "Anyway, here's Mary Beard to add a historical perspective. The Public Voice of Women."
Interesting, I skipped a bit through it for lack of time, but read the essentials...

Kind regards, Paul.
Back to top Go down
Temperance
Virgo Vestalis Maxima
avatar

Posts : 5525
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : The Sceptred Isle

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Mon 27 Nov 2017, 09:58

@ferval wrote:

Oh dear, Paul, that post worries me. It suggests that the classic method of control in an abusive relationship - the verbal destruction of self esteem and denigration that leaves the abused partner not only utterly helpless but feeling responsible for, and deserving of, that treatment - is something trivial and not worthy of just as much condemnation as physical cruelty.
How to prove? Obviously the testimony of a psychiatrist, or more likely a psychologist, a therapist, a counsellor or a social worker, as to the victim's mental state is indeed evidence and vital as so often this campaign is carried out in private and the abused has been systematically distanced from friends and family. This, I'm afraid, is really not rare, at least in its less extreme forms, but still there are the suicides, the substance abuse, the breakdowns that result. These wounds take longer to heal than those of the body.

You will, I hope, notice that I have not attached any gender labels to the above as of course this can happen whatever the gender of those involved but, nevertheless, the traditional predominance of men with physical and economic power has meant that statistically the vast majority of abusers have been men. Which does not, of course, mean that the majority of men are abusers.

Yes, "gaslighting" - a favourite weapon of the bully and of the controller - of either gender. I remember being very disturbed by the 1944 black and white film Gaslight when I saw it years ago - superb old film whence the term (now used so much in counselling) comes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting








Last edited by Temperance on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 18:05; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Temperance
Virgo Vestalis Maxima
avatar

Posts : 5525
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : The Sceptred Isle

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Mon 27 Nov 2017, 13:57

Deleted.


Back to top Go down
PaulRyckier
Censura
avatar

Posts : 2067
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Mon 27 Nov 2017, 20:53

Temperance and Ferval,

never heard of "gaslighting" and I don't see it in Ferval's message...or was this the key?:
"Temp, what a pity the poor wee Wilis (ha!) had to wait until they were dead to wreak revenge."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
From the wiki:
"Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief.[1][2]

Ladies I hope that I never came over that way in your eyes...

PS: I know the phenomenon, but didn't know it was expressed by "gaslighting". I know indeed such persons in my circle and in the work environment of before...

PPS: When all reading that of yours I feel a bit inferior to your levels, I mean knowing about all such items as these ones...
Or is that also a position of manipulation, of gaslighting? ...playing the underdog to bite then the harder from that underdog position... Wink

Kind regards to both and with esteem, Paul.
Back to top Go down
Temperance
Virgo Vestalis Maxima
avatar

Posts : 5525
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : The Sceptred Isle

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 30 Nov 2017, 14:36

Paul wrote:
Ladies I hope that I never came over that way in your eyes...

Good grief - of course you don't, Paul!

"Gaslighting" is a particularly nasty technique used by narcissists and sociopaths (male or female) to control others. Nothing new about this form of mental torture: gaslighting - in politics or in personal relationships - as old as the hills.

You may find this article from Psychology Today makes the term a little clearer:

How Gaslighters Exploit Victims
Back to top Go down
PaulRyckier
Censura
avatar

Posts : 2067
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 30 Nov 2017, 22:43

Thank you very much Temperance for your explanation and for the link to make it clearer.

Sadly, too late, after return from a copious dinner this evening, to start replies and commnets in the café about toilet paper and cheap flights...

See you tomorrow.

Kind regards from Paul.
Back to top Go down
Temperance
Virgo Vestalis Maxima
avatar

Posts : 5525
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : The Sceptred Isle

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Tue 05 Dec 2017, 08:08

I wrote:

Whether the character of Jesus of Nazareth actually existed or not is immaterial: the ideas and attitude to women, so very unusual in any literature of the time, do exist and are recorded in the Gospel writings: that is the point I was making.


@nordmann wrote:
If you read what I wrote above I attempted to explain why I thought these sentiments found themselves into the gospel narrative, and even why - as you say - they were pretty much unique expressions found in contemporary literary form in their day. I did not dismiss either assumption contained in your point as incorrect, I simply wished to point out that you maybe should consider that bringing "Jesus" into any historical discussion requires rather more analysis as to how and why he may have been invented as a character than standard theological analysis entertains. In terms of the context of this thread the character's main function, in my view, is as an expression of then contemporary values and attitudes towards the role of women within certain social classes which otherwise may never have been recorded in that place and time but which do in fact find parallels elsewhere and in other contemporary cultural contexts - something which is of huge historical importance as it has not traditionally been properly addressed even by historians in my view, let alone theologians (who can at least be forgiven for their frequent omissions of pertinent historical fact when it suits them).


This thread is probably dead now, but I wish I had picked up on that comment earlier, before the Unfortunate Spat - it's actually such a very important point that is being made. Saint Paul, as everyone "knows", has been blamed for his insistence that women should "submit" to men and that all females should learn to keep their mouths firmly shut etc. etc.. But was this really Saint Paul's teaching (or the understanding of the first century Gospel writers), or was it that of later commentators who were most anxious that Christianity should be seen as an orthodox way of life that conformed closely to the old household codes in which "Greco-Roman philosophers, historians and Hellenistic Jewish writers attached great importance" to the idea of "the well-ordered family...a patriarchal household"? The Romans did not like "radical" ideas, and the ideas of the very early Christian church were radical where women were concerned. No new religion favouring women - especially women from the lower orders of society - was going to be accepted by the  male élite of the Roman world; and it was that élite that had to be won over. The writers of the so-called Pauline Pastoral Letters were also reacting strongly against the teaching of the "heretical" Marcion. Karen Armstrong, in her Saint Paul - the Misunderstood Apostle, notes that "Marcion did understand Paul's egalitarianism and his concern for the poor and disenfranchised. His was the first church to follow Paul in promoting the ministry of women; in his (Marcion's) communities, women were permitted to heal and teach and were ordained as bishops and presbyters..."

We hear too much of the words written in Paul's name (most biblical scholars now agree the Pastoral letters are certainly not authentic), but not enough of the rather more revolutionary ideas concerning gender in Galatians 3:28. Credit where credit is due, chaps:


Galatians 3:28 New King James Version

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Back to top Go down
nordmann
Nobiles Barbariæ
avatar

Posts : 5880
Join date : 2011-12-25

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Wed 06 Dec 2017, 09:15

Whether Paul's theology has been poorly presented or not is of interest certainly to Christian theologians and those who follow such arguments. But what is of more importance to me is that the sentiment attributed by Karen Armstrong to both Marcion and Paul was certainly something that was abroad at the time. It has turned up in various representations (for example both in religious texts and in those more purely concerned with objective social commentary) within the philological record, and was obviously playing an increasingly influential role in how organised societies within the greater Roman civilisation were introspectively assessing themselves.

The point of Armstrong's observation is to highlight how women's status was encouraged to be addressed within this sentiment, or "Weltanschauung", that Marcion represents. Your own point citing a passage from Paul's texts illustrates that this Weltanschauung in fact had implications way beyond just women's status, and indeed explicitly advocated a form of universal egalitarianism, albeit in this citation expressed as a spiritual rather than a political concept.

I prefer to see this phenomenon in a broader historical context related to actual social reformation "from within" which was at that time engulfing the Roman empire - a political entity which had been rooted firmly in plutocratic ideology, enforced quite rigorously through very strict social barriers ensuring extremely limited access to the centre of power but which was fast metamorphosing through sheer necessity due to its immense size into a nebulous matrix of devolved authority. While this helped ensure that revenues could still be directed to the people at the centre it also sent out very strong signals to the millions of "ordinary" citizens that a fundamental shift was occurring in how these people could henceforth regard their relationship with authority, their status as citizens (and as people), and their understanding of exactly which forces (supernatural and secular) lay behind existence itself as it applied to what we now might call "the human condition".

Getting away from religious texts, but staying completely contemporaneous with Paul and even within his old stomping grounds, we are lucky to have access to many of the orations and texts of Dio Chrysostom - a guy who in his time could draw huge crowds to pre-advertised lectures and seminars, at one of which in Tarsus he basically outlined this new "meritocracy" evolving within society in general (the Second Tarsic Discourse delivered some time between 80 and 100 CE). And he was in no doubt from where this radical new political philosophy had emanated - amongst society's labouring classes within which one simply could not survive without some very basic common precepts regarding individual worth independent of assigned role, the true value of expertise and accomplishment even within very mundane fields, the innate knowledge that authority alone means little without voluntary acquiescence of those governed, and various other essentially egalitarian sentiments which the Roman state at its highest echelons actively abhorred and even punished people who entertained them, let alone actually acted on them. This attitude amongst the elite in fact gave rise to the original facetious application of the term "pagan" as a derogatory expression - in its first intended meaning quite specifically dismissed by them as a mentality and outlook common only to agricultural labourers and which had no place in governance, higher society, or within refined reason as defined by that elite.

What Dio Chrysostom, and Paul, and Marcion, and Dio Cassius, and several other authors of the day whose texts we can still read, were all in general agreement about was that this "paganism" in fact represented a far better alternative than traditional social order when it came to the quality of life of the individual, and even for society as a whole - a common notion shared by all of the aforementioned being that the old order was corrupt and corrupting whereas paganism in fact was where the original virtues still resided.

Although this thread is about sexual exploitation in particular, in fact exploitation of the individual in almost every conceivable manifestation was far more likely to occur within and in support of corrupt elitism and the society it produced, and far less likely to occur within those levels of society in which egalitarian values had, through necessity, always been present. This was increasingly recognised as a moral axiom by everyone from theologians within mystery faiths to political commentators and philosophers addressing the structure and function of society. In fact the 1st century CE saw a monumental shift in attitudes and a huge increase in such axiomatic claims being vocalised, whether as theological assertions or as political analysis, especially from within Rome's provinces in Asia Minor where it was not just being vocalised but had in fact become more and more a prevailing social norm. Inscriptional evidence from the period suggests that the early Christian recognition of women's equal status to men in Asia Minor (whether shared by Paul or not) was no one-off radical departure originated by Christians, but in fact simply in accord with a much more prevalent social more that can be found in relation to Jewish congregations, civic records, local government records, land and property records, philosophical texts, grave markers, and just about any method whereby social sentiment was recorded at the time. "Revolutionary ideas concerning gender" were certainly a feature of the period, though how much these had helped inform Christian theology rather than the reverse is at this stage a very moot point. What is rather easier to ascertain is that Christian theology, along with several other increasingly influential voices in the region, was encouraging the formation of a society in which exploitation, sexual or otherwise, was automatically to be regarded as anti-social and in fact counter-productive when it came to ensuring an elevated quality of life for all society's members rather than just an elite few. This was certainly revolutionary stuff, but it wasn't exclusively Christian - which may even help to explain how easily therefore the same Christian theology could be adapted so readily later to in fact enforce the original status quo regarding women's status and role in society which it had once so vigorously challenged.
Back to top Go down
https://reshistorica.historyboard.net
PaulRyckier
Censura
avatar

Posts : 2067
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Wed 06 Dec 2017, 22:31

Temperance and nordmann,

I will further elaborate this tomorrow, but now my first thoughts and comments.

nordmann,

I read with attention your latest message and as before, and I said it here or in another thread to Temperance too, as I read in Peter Brown
"The Body and Society. Men women and sexual renunciation in early Christianity", Brown said that St Paul made his statements "salonfâhig" to the Roman public of the first century, including the place of women in the Roman society of that time. I made a thread of it on the old BBC messageboard and it is still there and can it bring over to this discussion too. It was a month in the focus on the BBC, while I mentioned the Roman Catholic teachings to me, last half of the 20th century, which were nearly the same as in that Roman period about sexuality and all that. Perhaps as I read now nordmann's message, Peter Brown was pointing as Temperance said more to the manners of the elite of that time and not to the common man, the bulk of the Christians of that time...?
But looking on the internet again today, I read the introduction again, and it was completely otherwise than in 2006...
https://www.amazon.com/Body-Society-Renunciation-Christianity-Columbia/dp/0231144075


And after a while I saw why...it is the "second edition" on the 20th anniversary of the "first edition" 1988
The first edition is this one, that I commented in the time:
https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/isbn/0231061005/


As for 6 dollars and, I was on the point to buy it when I saw in the local library list (Bruges Belgium) that it was there available in French translation (in the stock room to ask via the reading room)
The second edition is to read online somewhere...
After reading the comments of Peter Brown on the second edition I have the impression that he completely changed his approach to his introduction...

Can it be that it was due to our discussion on the ex-BBC forum (from 2006?) that he read and changed then his introduction in 2008 Wink ?
If that would have been the case that would really be an incentive for having a "big head?" (translated that way from the Dutch: "een dikke nek hebben" (having a thick neck)). Wink

But now having read that new introduction and  nordmann's message I think that the St. Paul's question is more as Temperance says...and due to my one sided reading of Peter Brown I was unfair to Temperance...who, I think now, has it more or less at the right end...

Kind regards to both, Paul.
Back to top Go down
nordmann
Nobiles Barbariæ
avatar

Posts : 5880
Join date : 2011-12-25

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 07 Dec 2017, 08:02

I really hope this doesn't get fixated on St Paul - whatever he may have said or not have said. While his texts - or at least those attributed to him - are an extremely valuable philological record related to the period and can yield much insight into broader society of the period, and that of Asia Minor in particular, they are by no means the only such records or even necessarily the best for this purpose, and are even less reliable if taken in complete isolation from their broader social context of the period in which they were first recorded as evidenced through other contemporaneous sources, and of course when one acknowledges the problem of veracity related to which of the attributed texts may be later redactions or additions.

This is not to dismiss the contribution an examination of these texts will make to discussing the social evolution of attitudes towards sexual exploitation, but rather a plea to broaden the scope of investigation to include other pertinent sources (not all of which by any means have any theological relevance whatsoever but are nevertheless of paramount historical importance). Sexual exploitation and its associated issues and effects are not essentially a theological subject or dilemma but a social one and any scrutiny of these issues related to this period in time cannot be served well by a fixation on one particular source, especially one where implicit social attitudes and mores require at this stage to be laboriously recovered through such a heavy filtering of theological interpretation as that to which they were subjected in their original recording.
Back to top Go down
https://reshistorica.historyboard.net
Temperance
Virgo Vestalis Maxima
avatar

Posts : 5525
Join date : 2011-12-30
Location : The Sceptred Isle

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 07 Dec 2017, 08:30

I agree with that - and it would be so very interesting to look at the other sources. Help please!

I wish I had more time to read about, think about and discuss all this, but will not be around now until after Christmas - see post coming up in the bar.

I've been thinking about Hypatia this morning - incredible woman who was more or less lynched by a mob of particularly unpleasant Christian males - the Parabalani(?). What was her great error, apart from being female and quite intelligent?

Back to top Go down
Triceratops
Censura
avatar

Posts : 3233
Join date : 2012-01-05

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 07 Dec 2017, 09:53

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, Temp. a Gnostic work from the Nag Hammadi find.
Refers to Achamoth/Sophia and self propagation:

The First Apocalypse of James
Back to top Go down
PaulRyckier
Censura
avatar

Posts : 2067
Join date : 2012-01-01
Location : Belgium

PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   Thu 07 Dec 2017, 22:49

@nordmann wrote:
I really hope this doesn't get fixated on St Paul - whatever he may have said or not have said. While his texts - or at least those attributed to him - are an extremely valuable philological record related to the period and can yield much insight into broader society of the period, and that of Asia Minor in particular, they are by no means the only such records or even necessarily the best for this purpose, and are even less reliable if taken in complete isolation from their broader social context of the period in which they were first recorded as evidenced through other contemporaneous sources, and of course when one acknowledges the problem of veracity related to which of the attributed texts may be later redactions or additions.

This is not to dismiss the contribution an examination of these texts will make to discussing the social evolution of attitudes towards sexual exploitation, but rather a plea to broaden the scope of investigation to include other pertinent sources (not all of which by any means have any theological relevance whatsoever but are nevertheless of paramount historical importance). Sexual exploitation and its associated issues and effects are not essentially a theological subject or dilemma but a social one and any scrutiny of these issues related to this period in time cannot be served well by a fixation on one particular source, especially one where implicit social attitudes and mores require at this stage to be laboriously recovered through such a heavy filtering of theological interpretation as that to which they were subjected in their original recording.


nordmann and Temperance, you are right. Let us lay to rest St Paul and focus on other sources.

Kind regards to both.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: The History of Sexual Exploitation   

Back to top Go down
 

The History of Sexual Exploitation

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Res Historica History Forum :: The history of people ... :: Civilisation and Community-