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 Pie in Queenhithe

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PostSubject: Pie in Queenhithe   Fri 15 Dec 2017, 13:46


Here I come again (sorry  Embarassed ),

There's another architectural conundrum (for me) in the same book of Acroyd:


"A raid by inspectors prompted the report that ‘behind The Pie in Queenhithe is a privy place which is a good shadowing for thieves and many evil bargains have been made there.


I would be tempted to say that "The Pie" is in fact a way of saying "The Pier", since there was one of those in the 14th century London Thames bank, but I wouldn't want to let anything to speculation, just in case.


Thanks for your efforts and attention, really.  Smile
CM
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PostSubject: Re: Pie in Queenhithe   Fri 15 Dec 2017, 15:00

The Pie was a tavern there.
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PostSubject: Re: Pie in Queenhithe   Tue 19 Dec 2017, 13:45

Hi, I am sorry for the delay in my answer, the fact is that, for some unknown reason (because that's the first time it happens), the mail system had sequestered this particular mail in my spam folder.

And thanks, I take good note of that fact: it was a tavern —but how do you manage to know these things? I mean, is there any source available where one can get that kind of facts? I guess this tavern is nonexisting today and that it disappeared long time ago…

Anyway, this is to say I am only too pleased to have your help. Smile

[I am going to immediately tell the mailer this is NOT at all spam of any type…
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PostSubject: Re: Pie in Queenhithe   Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:49

I have a copy of an Oxford journal from the 19th century that contains a collection of records compiled by John Stow when he was commissioned by King James in 1604 to start a systematic historical survey of London. Stow had already established his reputation as London's first historian of note and this royal patronage gave him nominal access to any subject's personal library and the right to interview whoever he chose (and get paid for it). Alas for the impoverished Stow he was too old and infirm by this time, and died only a few months later, but not before he had actually set out to do the king's bidding. This brief period of research never yielded any publication, but in the 19th century was made available to scholars when purchased by the Bodleian (I think, it might have been a college library).

In the journal article Stow lists some infamous murders, one of which happened outside The Pie on Thames Street in the time of Henry VII in which a clerk was robbed and stabbed. Stow conjectures that the clerk, being in the employ of Morton the Archbishop of Canterbury, may well have been on an errand for his master at the time and that fate therefore could easily have led any fellow young clerk to his doom that day. If so then the great Sir Thomas More could well have been lost to history before he'd even reached maturity.

It is unlikely that there would have been two Pie taverns in the vicinity of the docks - the point was to keep the names as unique as possible within general areas.

Thames Street is a barren concrete wind tunnel these days, devoid of character, devoid of aesthetic quality, devoid of daylight for much of it. It is certainly devoid of taverns - though a few hardy licences have managed to withstand the ravages of post-war development, just about. The Pie, alas, had long passed into oblivion. The docks, including Queenshithe, were meat and drink to the Great Fire of 1666 because of their highly combustible warehouse contents and many a tavern in the area went up in smoke along with everything else. If The Pie had managed to survive to that year it definitely does not reappear after it as far as I can see, though I see that a tavern still existed across Thames Street from Queenshithe dock right up to World War Two - so maybe this was its successor (London always had a remarkable manner of retaining tavern locations over impossibly long periods in which buildings, names and clientele changed many times over - an even better retention rate than church locations in some areas).
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PostSubject: Re: Pie in Queenhithe   Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:57

Wow! I'll need a hat-off emoticon here… Really interesting (and funny, I must say: "…retaining tavern locations over impossibly long periods […] even better than church locations…").
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