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 Fakers, Faking it and Faked

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Priscilla
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PostSubject: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 16 Mar 2018, 16:25

I get the feeling that little is what it seems or purports to be these days from news, purchases and people masquerading in several ways everywhere. Some we do spot, some we miss and some we wonder about. Perhaps it has always been thus through the ages. Res Hist may have some thoughts on this


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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 16 Mar 2018, 20:47

I gather the phrase 'fake news' was first used in the 1920s though I don't know in what context.  But I am sure there were fakers before that.  Dr James Barry et al pretending to be male might fit the bill.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:07

Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck spring immediately to mind - two attempts (one still contested) to "fake" the identity of an "heir" which was engineered by others to vicariously achieve ultimate power in the state. When power is invested symbolically in the presence of one individual at the top of the political heap, the control of whom yields such fecund rewards, and given how popular this power structure has traditionally been in matters of governance, such duplicity has to have been commonplace historically - and one is left to wonder, given the number of infamous cases of which we know where the duplicity was exposed, just how many times such fakery was in fact pulled off successfully. James VII's inconvenient production of a Catholic heir highlighted the other side of the same coin - it being also a case where the allegation of fakery was made, this time by those traditionally doing the political engineering normally producing such fake heirs and immediately suspicious therefore that the monarch was attempting a similar ploy (even if they knew he wasn't the allegation alone was sufficient to sow popular distrust in a society which could readily believe it possible, especially by someone already held in suspicion regarding his motives and plans). But whichever side of the coin one contemplates historically it leaves one with the inevitable impression that such political engineers were more than au fait with the exercise, and that therefore the "no smoke without fire" euphemism applies.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:11

What about the lady who claimed to be Anastasia (a surviving daughter of the Czar after the Russian revolution).  I think the perceived idea is that she was a fake.

I've read some posts by a bloke who thinks the body of Richard III is a fake and that the remains actually belong to a nun.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:50

Some bloke? Some bloke? That's no way to speak of the boss, LiR.

The best summary any historian ever wrote detailing the Perkin and Lambert controversy is as follows:


Two pretenders who now arose were Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, and they succeeded in confusing the issue absolutely by being so similar that some historians suggest they were really the same person (i.e. the Earl of Warbeck).

Lambert Simnel (the Young Pretender) was really (probably) himself, but cleverly pretended to be the Earl of Warbeck. Henry VII therefore ordered him to be led through the streets of London to prove that he really was.

Perkin Warbeck (th older and more confusing Pretender) insisted that he was himself, thus causing complete dissension till Henry VII had him led through the streets of London to prove that he was really Lambert Simnel.

The punishment of these Pretenders was justly similar, since Perkin Warmnel was compelled to become a blot on the King's skitchen, while Perbeck was made an escullion. Wimneck, however, subsequently began pretending again. This time he pretended that he had been smothered in early youth and buried under a stair-rod while pretending to be one of the Little Princes in the Tower. In order to prove that he had not been murdered before, Henry was reluctantly compelled to have him really executed.


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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 17 Mar 2018, 12:03

If it looks like being dodgy weatherwise I'm not venturing forth, Temperance.  I have enough 'eats' in store to tide me over.  I'm hoping to see Lady Stark in a relayed broadcast of Julius Caesar from the NT on 22nd March as a birthday present from me to me.  I may have mentioned that on another thread (the perils of having a 60 and a bit (a big bit) memory!).  I think nordmann has a sense of humour but apologies if I have trodden on any toes with my comment.  Which historian have you quoted, Temperance?

When I was looking into conspiracy theories (and thinking well where the heck did that idea come from?) there was something I mentioned on another thread where I'd read that some years ago there was a hoax where somebody said there were caverns under Los Angeles and the tale grew to the stage that allegedly there were reptilians or at least reptiles living in the said caverns.  Eventually the tale supposedly grew exponentially that it gave birth to the notion of the reptilian elites as adopted by one Mr Icke.  Mind you, I may think Mr Icke is as mad as a box of frogs (well he may say the odd thing I agree with but then he says something loopy which makes me roll my eyes) but he has made a reasonable living for himself and travels the world speaking about his ideas!!  As Los Angeles is in California I suppose there are some reptiles there - lizards and snakes at least, but I think they are normal size not human size!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 17 Mar 2018, 12:52

Not a good place to go - all those reptiles. I mean the ones above in lounge suits and slinky frocks. The ones beneath cannot be much worse. That's the trouble with he world of fakes. It is so easy to be taken in - for a while and then the 1d drops and you feel a bit daft for having been taken in.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 07:17

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
What about the lady who claimed to be Anastasia (a surviving daughter of the Czar after the Russian revolution).  I think the perceived idea is that she was a fake.

I've read some posts by a bloke who thinks the body of Richard III is a fake and that the remains actually belong to a nun.

A sound bloke, whoever he is, and obviously unafraid to point the finger at academic fraud even as it is being perpetrated. I commend him. Though I wonder if he's on safe ground assuming the poor victim was a nun purely because she was found in a convent? It may equally have been one of the establishment's employees of course, or even a member of that oldest profession who were not unknown to end their days in such institutions either, which would make what the taxpayer has now forked out for in the local cathedral the most elaborate tomb of a scullery maid or a brazzer in Christendom. Jesus would probably be rolling in his grave with laughter (if yet another giant political fraud hadn't seen the poor bugger have to officially vacate it).

The Anastasia case appeared to have been one of assumed identity for pathological reasons, and if a deception then one that took in the perpetrator herself. Which of course is why it is fodder still for conspiratorial apologists on her behalf  - so ingrained is the expectation that such deception has a proven track record of base political and wealth motive behind it that even less obvious cases must still be proof of such conspiracy (in her case the assumed conspiracy being to deprive her of her claim's credibility). Which is quite understandable, and undeniably down to the fact that the political and the wealthy have indeed populated that record historically with so many instances to which new ones can and will be compared that any individual who now engages in such identity fraud but whose claim confers no obvious advantage to be gained in either sphere is immediately assumed by a great many on that flimsy basis to be a "genuine" claimant, even ahead of any consideration of possible personality disorder. Such a pathological disorder would - in all other less grandiose instances of confused identity for which the individual concerned offers during analysis only further confusion and little resolution - normally be in fact the most logical reason to ascribe to such behaviour, and the assumption most likely to lead to a medical or psychiatric treatment which might actually help these unfortunates.
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Temperance
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 11:59

This could perhaps be one for the Historical Captions thread:

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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 15:31

Well that was strange - I typed mentioning the moon hoax of 1835 but I was asked to type something to prove I wasn't a robot and the post didn't take.  Maybe when I have a little more time to spare I will look at hoaxes.org generally - not necessarily to post here but for my own information.


 hoaxes.org/archive/permalink/the_great_moon_hoax


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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 15:34

In my lost post I had asked nordmann if the "sound bloke" in question had a sense of humour - I think he does but nordmann if I trod on any toes I am sincerely sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 15:45

In my experience LiR an acoustic engineer is always good for a laugh. It's a vision mixer who can sometimes be overly serious.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 15:49

@Vizzer wrote:
In my experience LiR an acoustic engineer is always good for a laugh. It's a vision mixer who can sometimes be overly serious.

Oh I walked into that one did I not, Vizzer?

I had actually come back to suggest the "Hitler Diaries" as another fake or forgery.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sun 18 Mar 2018, 16:54

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
In my lost post I had asked nordmann if the "sound bloke" in question had a sense of humour - I think he does but nordmann if I trod on any toes I am sincerely sorry.

My toes have long since been inured from being down-trodden by third parties. A small chambers in Middle Temple Lane looks after the in-growns and out-growns for me so I can concentrate on the main job - identifying hunchback nuns etc.

Regarding the Hitler Diaries Hoax - this was so obviously a forgery and so obviously designed to enhance the profitability of their author Konrad Kujau whose main business was flogging Nazi memorabilia that it begs the question of just how intelligent the Sunday Times editors of the period were (or crooked). He had already by then been convicted more than once of forging testimonies and documents designed to lend his bric-a-brac some extra provenance when being sold and which greatly increased their sale value as a result. What isn't properly appreciated however is the fact that he was even better (and more successful) at forging Hitler paintings, what with him having started his working career as a pretty adept book illustrator. So good (and frequently produced) were these forgeries that it is now no longer even attempted to claim 100% secure provenance for any Hitler painting that comes up for auction and it is tacitly acknowledged that there is now a consistent 40% chance that you are actually buying a Kujau.

Even more impressive than the Hitler Diaries was the 1957 Mussolini Diaries Hoax (there has since been a subsequent famous Mussolini hoax in 2007) in which a mother and daughter, Amalia and Rosa Panvini, hand-wrote a whole 30 volumes of drivel purporting to be Benito's daily account of what he had for dinner, how hairy Von Ribbentrop's nose was, why he liked Walt Disney, and so on. These contained almost nothing of political insight or importance but were still convincing enough to fool the late dictator's son, apparently. They were not officially debunked until the 1970s, but only because they stood at the end of a long queue of forged material purporting to be from Bennie's Day-Book that had proliferated throughout the late 40s and 50s and which all had to be officially investigated and debunked by a special court that had been set up for the purpose. In the meantime the obviously fake "diaries" sold in sufficient quantity to afford the Panvinis a nice little villa by Lake Garda in which they lived out a happy retirement. The daughter received a fine of about £50 in the end (the mother had died by then), suggesting the whole thing had seen rather more than the Panvinis enjoy a nice little pension funded vicariously by Benito M. and directly by a shamelessly gullible public.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Mon 19 Mar 2018, 19:47

It's well known and I'm sure it's been mentioned on other threads (or at least one other thread) but there was the Piltdown Man.

Trike mentioned a hoax when I was musing while I was still looking at the strange YouTube videos whether such videos might be hoaxes (I wouldn't be surprised).  Anyway Trike mentioned the book "Naked Came the Stranger" which somebody (or somebodies) in the belief that "dumbing down" was going on.  It was on either the Daily Rant or the Tumbleweed Suite last year sometime and the kudos for mentioning the hoax should go to Trike.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Wed 21 Mar 2018, 21:49

Oddly enough, I was reading The Oldie the other day and its headline under History was Fake horses, fake bodies, fake VIPs.  It was more about hoaxes than actual fakes but these included the Trojan horse (whether it is actually historical or not, the author was saying it was a tactic that has been copied since), the Donation of Constantine, Titus Oates, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the Dreadnought Hoax of 1910.  I didn't know about most of these, at least in any detail.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Wed 21 Mar 2018, 22:23

Thinking of horses, I've had a look on that hoaxes website again and I wonder if this hoax was the reason one conspiracy theorist writing that zebra were painted horses.

Museum of Hoaxes: Painted Ponies

This one says that the Dartmoor Livestock Protection Society launched a scheme in 2015 to paint stripes on Dartmoor ponies to make them visible to motorists.  Apparently that was a real plan but I don't know if it came to fruition. But apparently a Copenhagen newspaper printed an April Fools' Day jape in 1965 saying there was a plan afoot to paint black dogs white to make them more visible at night.


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PostSubject: Edited to fix something that read badly.   Fri 23 Mar 2018, 14:56

Did we have a "fake news" thread at one time?

Have I acted flippantly for having wanted to have a bit of fun with this thread times?  Of course, fakery can have dire consequences.  Perkin Warbeck being put to death paid a hefty price for his fakery (or not fakery, I doubt we'll ever know for certain after this length of time).  There is also the case of the FBI having alleged that the child of the actress Jean Seberg who died within a few days after birth (a daughter) was not Ms Seberg's husband's child but that of one of a "black panther" (in the political sense).  Now I can't find anything on the internet to verify this but I seem to recall hearing something to the effect that Ms Seberg had the child buried in a glass coffin to prove the child was not of mixed race.

Then there was the scientist who said that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction and his scientifically scholarship was belittled by (some members) of Parliament.  The scientific community rallied round and said that in fact his scholarship did have merit but before he was vindicated the poor man committed suicide.

I suppose there are also the people who had their careers destroyed - or certainly undermined - during the McCarthy era by smear tactics.


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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 23 Mar 2018, 17:25

While I think of it, I'll mention the man who never was - the ruse whereby a dead body was left off the coast of Spain in World War II with fake documents to try and convince the Germans that the Allies were planning to invade Greece rather than Sicily. From the blurb I've read Hitler was taken in though not all the Germans were.  The matter was the subject of a book and a film.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Never_Was
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Tue 03 Apr 2018, 15:47

I hope I haven't "killed off" this thread.  Towards the end of my time working at the museum I had to transfer some records from book recording artefacts - which did mention some fakes "Flint Jack's Work".  My learned friends on this board will probably have known since time immemorial that there were architectural fakes other than "Piltdown Man" but it was a revelation to me that there were real life people like the character in Jonathan Gash's Lovejoy novels.

I also thought of the "Holy C**p, Holy Grail" shenanigans.  I used to know a lady who was convinced it was true and enjoyed Dan Brown's novels.  Well, it's not for me to tell other people what they should or shouldn't like as reading matter.  I wonder if the "Oldie" article Caro mentions above is available online - might be worth a read.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 06 Apr 2018, 23:02

I don't know if this will be of interest to anyone else - I have been thinking about having a bash at making a corset to give my back support when I do heavier household or gardening tasks.  I don't want to tight lace and would only wear the same when I was doing the said tasks.  Anyway, when I was looking at videos about corsets I came across this one which rather made me laugh about "Victorian photoshopping" - how they made waists in photographs look smaller back in the day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbcPgfiB0Q
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 07:50

LiR,

Regarding corsets, for quite a while I used such as a supportive device - no longer, though, even if/when it might still be very useful, in order to keep my back - if not always my points-of-views - straight.

You mention being straight-laced, IMHO, in order to offer any support a corset should be tight, and the professionel makers of those things that I've used, started with laces but eventually shifted to velcro, which I'd recommend. 

As I see them - nowadays - corsets are more seen as an aide where the skeleton no longer keep the body as originally designed.

I have no points of view on the use of corsets as means of appearing leaner than one's appetites actually are.

Good luck with the design.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:56

Talking about corsets ... the term 'straight-laced', to mean rather prim and proper, comes about because a straight-laced corset or bodice was difficult to unlace, as opposed to one that was cross-laced. A cross-laced bodice therefore became associated with prostitutes as it was easier and quicker to undo. Similarly a gentille lady's bodice or corset was always laced up at the back, which required one to have a maid to help do it up ... only whores or similar 'loose' women (with unloosed bodices), or of course those that didn't have the luxury of maidservants, had bodices that laced up at the front.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 12:01

@Meles meles wrote:
... only whores or other loose women (or those that didn't have the luxury of maidservants) had bodices that laced up the front.

Let me tell you, Mm, that even if my corsets were done up front, I never considered myself a loose woman ... and I've never had the service of a servant - maid or not. [I was thinking of some kind of pun on name of the town of Maidenhead but can't think of any.]


Edited because of spelling and for adding something else.
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PostSubject: 2nd edit - letters in comment appeared as green after links to YouTube videos and edit was to fix that.   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 13:22

Thanks for the input, MM and Nielsen.  In all honesty in my youth I was glad to see the end of roll-ons and girdles (well as things that every lady over the age of whatever wore) but my back does get achy these days if I exert myself which is why I was thinking of a corset.  I would not be wearing a corset all the time anyway - only when I felt I needed support.  I'm trying to cut down the time I spend on the internet and am trying to do some tidying up today - it's just a question of plodding along at it but I've "taken five" (minutes) to look at Res Hist.  Funnily enough as it's my back that feels manky I WAS thinking of doing a front lacing style but even if that is "loose" I don't think anyone would want to buy even if I were to offer my wares (which I have no intention of doing) at my age!!!  As you probably know there are things on YouTube about practically everything under the sun (not just nutty conspiracy theories) and there are video tutorials about how to lace up at the back if you don't have a maidservant.  (One of my grannies was "in service" at some stage before her marriage until she became ill - the family she was working her treated her well apparently so there were some decent employers back in the day; whether she ever did up anybody's corset I don't know).  I exchanged emails with a lady who knows more about corsetry than myself and she said she doesn't think the pattern I have is an awfully good pattern because it makes up on the loose side (no pun intended).  I'll have to think long and hard.  There is a website with instructions for drawing up one's own body specific corset pattern but I don't know that drawing up a pattern is really part of my skill set.  Anyway, how to lace one's corset "inverted bunny ears" fashion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta5n1R6X06E and common or garden "bunny ears" fashion.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk5OnET9aQU
 
 
Somebody informed me recently I tend to overdo the brackets when I type.  I suppose I tend to type how I think with all the added asides or tangential thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 22:13

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I exchanged emails with a lady who knows more about corsetry than myself

Co-incidentally LiR the subject of corsets arose recently in our house. Mrs V and I were watching the rather silly 2016 film Pride & Prejudice & Zombies (don't ask) and in it the Bennet girls were seen getting ready for the Bingley ball. They were shown lacing each other up in what looked like 1860s-style whalebone corsets (cross-laced at the back) before then putting Regency gowns on over them. I suggested that corsets weren't worn at that time while Mrs V said that they were but that they weren't known as corsets at that time but rather were called stays or bodices and were much looser fitting than their Victorian successors. Naturally I bowed to her greater knowledge in this.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Sat 07 Apr 2018, 22:47

My grandmother, living at our house, wore corsets every day, and I think they were more than ordinary corsets.  They covered her from breasts to the top of her legs, and she had to do up the hooks and eyes, dozens of them, if not hundreds, every morning and undo them every evening.  If we girls were at home in the holidays (I don't remember doing this on a daily basis at primary school but maybe we were considered too young for that) she would get us to help.  

I have no idea why when we were just expecting to be at home all day without visitors she felt obliged to do this. Even if she was out in the shearing shed she would have on her corsets, which she did sometimes call 'stays'.  Not bodices.  (Like you, LIR, I like to scatter brackets willy-nilly, but have refrained a bit in the above writing.) I grew up in the era when we wore 'easies' to keep our stockings up.  But then tights came in, yay!  And now even women in their 90s wear trousers nearly all the time, at least in the rural district where I live, and casual clothing is the norm.  

And I often wonder why in the days when washing was so difficult, women and men too really wore such cumbersome clothes, while now when washing is really quite simple and clothes don't need ironing much we wear such comfortable, easy, light clothes.  It seems the wrong way round.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Mon 09 Apr 2018, 10:13

The corset diversion started with LiR's mention of Victorian "photoshopping" of images to portray people in a particular manner that bore no relation to the reality of their actual shape etc. This got me thinking about image manipulation through the centuries - a practice as old as art itself, it seems (Hans Holbein, we're looking at you).

Women wanting to manipulate their image can almost be regarded as a sub-theme to this in its own right. Whereas men have been equally guilty of this, and for just as vain reasons when such is the case, women have often taken things to an extreme when it comes to exaggeration of physical aspects to their appearance that puts men's attempts in the ha'penny place, whether this applies simply to how they are portrayed or even actual mutilation of their bodies to achieve the effect in reality too.

However when it comes to the image and how exaggeration is employed I reckon Cleopatra deserves a special mention. Cleo had several problems related to her acquisition of power and then being taken seriously as a leader afterwards, not so much to do with her sex as with her well publicised method of having consolidated power through fratricide and infanticide (even then a bit of a no-no in the standard imperial rule book), as well as the validity of the dying Ptolemy's directive regarding succession, which many chose to believe had been "edited" by Cleo and her supporters to give her a leg up. It was essential, for example, that she demonstrate and reinforce at every opportunity her Ptolemaic heredity back to the original ruler of that name - it not only cemented her claim domestically on the throne in Egypt but also gave her considerable leverage in her negotiations with the Romans regarding her right to rule Egypt as a client state bordering on "neighbour status" rather than "province status" in any subsequent treaty between them. For one thing it meant that the 17 million drachma debt to the Romans that she'd inherited might be written off.

Her problem in this regard was that this Ptolemaic genetic heritage, for what it was worth, had been so rapidly diluted and warped once the original Macedonian incumbents had adopted Egyptian practices when it came to employing sexual intercourse to guarantee royal lineage - a messy affair involving incest, concubines, harems and rape of arbitrarily chosen individuals - had quickly meant that physical traits which might demonstrate such heritage were more the result of coincidence than likelihood on the part of subsequent claimants, Cleo included.

For Cleo the key therefore was her nose, which she fancied showed a "Greek" character in profile and therefore was her primary physical proof of validity as queen/pharaoh/empress descended directly in line from the original Ptolemy. This had to be emphasised at every opportunity - a resurgence of the ancient Egyptian artistic style at the time in which profiles abounded must have been in no small way down to the encouragement of that style "encouraged" by her court, possible even as a directive one dared not ignore.

However if such a directive included "and emphasise my nose" then the results were sporadic, to put it mildly. Poor Cleo - who all agreed in person was by no means an eyesore by the standards of the times - ended up with quite a variety of proboscidés as displayed in "official" images that, were even one of them to be true, meant that Alexander the Great for all his faults at least had no problem having by his side an unfortunately "facially anomolous" (as we are obliged to say these days) general who was either at one extreme a congenital mouth-breather or at the other an archaic prototype of supersonic airline travel unbeknownst to himself.

My favourite is the following coin - issued early in her reign when she would have been about 18 years of age - and which she surely approved for distribution. This was when she was still battling considerable local support for the idea that her brother had sole legitimate claim to the throne, a part of which was rather public and widespread distrust of her birthright. It was crucial therefore the prominent nose be depicted in all official mainfestations of the royal image, and boy did the artist take the instruction to heart in this case!



A few years later the nose could shrink a bit (though only a bit) and the following coin issued at the time, a double-headed affair with Mark Antony on the obverse, also demonstrates that other rather more subtle trick of image manipulation - if you want to appear beautiful stand next to the ugliest troll in the pub.



From around the same period however one artist at least appears to have tried to reconcile the nose directive with the commonly acknowledged idea that the woman actually wasn't all that bad looking - and whether it is down to modern sentiment and standards or actual historical cause to believe it the following image is now considered to be the most realistic depiction of Cleo.

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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Tue 10 Apr 2018, 11:00

nordmann, I don't know if you are aware of the BBC series from the 1980s The Cleopatras.  It was one of those programmes that was so bad it was good (as in you could have a laugh at it - well I did).  Having said that the late Robert Hardy and Richard Griffiths were both in it.  Now this being TV it is quite possible that they diverged from true history as TV programmes have been known to do, but the story told there was that the direct legitimate son of one of the Pharaohs was killed so they brought in the B team born of a concubine where one of the brothers married the sister and they took the throne, these being Cleopatra's parents.  Years later Cleopatra's fond papa, "Fluter" killed off Berenice his eldest daughter because he saw her as a rebel and although she had been advised to flee she stayed put, the next daughter in line being Cleopatra.  But like I say, I don't have the knowledge to say what was realistic and what was the show runners being inventive.  nordmann may know the realistic version of events - or some other reader(s) of this board may.  I've heard one theory that Cleopatra (as in the one who had flings with Caesar and Antonius) was a redhead, though I suppose real Cleopatra would have worn one of those ceremonial wigs.

Thinking about the coin depicting Cleopatra, in my childhood there were still some Queen Victoria pennies in circulation (pennies as in denarii).  There were two versions one of young Victoria and one of aged Victoria.  I heard that the populace didn't like the version with older Victoria so the Mint went back to producing coins with young Victoria's profile.  As with Cleopatra's hair colour I have been unable to find anything to say whether the change back to a more flattering outline for Victoria was fact or urban legend but if it should be true I guess that was maybe one time when fakery had public approval.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Tue 10 Apr 2018, 11:40

I used to feel sorry for the lady on the English penny in the wheelchair when I was a kid. It was years before I found out this was Britannia with her shield by her side.

I recall reading that Cleopatra was liberal with the henna alright when she dolled herself up for state occasions - again this was apparently to make her look more Greek and was a thing she shared with prominent Roman women of the time too. At least she knew how to use it, not like her pal Julius C who painted his face with the stuff.

That whole family was so gloriously disfunctional that you can put any one of them in bed with the other (or at the other's throat) and there's a fair chance you're being historically accurate. The Berenice lassie was, even by Ptolemaic standards, a real nasty piece of work - she was working her way through murdering everyone by the name of Cleopatra (mostly sisters, half-sisters, aunts that were also half-sisters etc) when she was stopped in her tracks by her father (who she'd rather stupidly overlooked in her spree, possibly because he wasn't called Cleopatra but was simply a mere Ptolemy) and was duly beheaded by him.

Speaking of Caesar, there's another good example of extreme image manipulation and control. Being the Bobby Charlton of his era, and in a period when the comb-over hadn't yet been foisted on an unsuspecting public, he single-handedly revived the Italian laurel bush population so that he could hide his shiny pate and woe be to the artist who depicted him without his foliage! Later emperors then adopted the affectation (along with his name) to establish their imperial qualifications, but it never looked good on anyone with actual hair, I noticed.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Tue 10 Apr 2018, 22:13

This may be a slight diversion from fakery but Caro rightly said that nowadays ladies often wear trousers for comfort.  I may have mentioned this on one of the "daily" threads a while back but when I was coping with doing most things with my left non-dominant arm (when I was wearing a sling) a few months ago, although trousers are very convenient I found it easier to manage with skirts.  A lot of my trousers are elastic waisted nowadays and I found that when I pulled them on left-handed I only seemed to get them about half way up my "rump" resulting in "builder's bum".  Not wanting to show either my skin or next week's washing I plumped mainly for skirts during my convalescence, though slacks with a long tunic was an option.

nordmann refers to Caesar's use of laurel headgear to cover his pate.  In the 20th/21st century there have been men who have deliberately shaven their heads.  I can think of the actor Yul Brynner (who I had not realised was born in the former USSR (Vladivostok) who kept his shaven style even after playing the King of Siam (just looked on Wikipedia).  My mother did take me to see "The King and I" eons ago but I never got to see the end of the film because she pulled me out before the closure so that we would not miss the last bus. To be fair we did have a lousy bus service.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Wed 11 Apr 2018, 09:50

Talking about hair loss ... Louis XIII of France started to go bald at just 23 years of age and so took to wearing wigs.

Here he is aux cheveux naturels in 1620 (aged 19):



And here he is bewigged in about 1628 (aged 27 or so):



... but as everyone at court tried to copy the king's fashion, wigs too soon became the de rigeur. Louis XIII's fake flowing locks looked reasonably natural but under his son, Louis XIV, all pretence to reality was lost as wigs literally reached new extreme heights:

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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Thu 19 Apr 2018, 15:08

Interesting about the wigs MM.  Didn't the Ptolemys (Ptolemies?) and Cleopatras use wigs for formal occasions?  Although the TV series mentioned upthread was as I said fun in a bad way so I don't know how accurate the depictions of ancient Egyptian royalty therein were.

I came across fakery where a woman writer pretended to be a young male suffering from HIV in the 1990s and wrote some stories purporting to be autobiographical in that scenario.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JT_LeRoy


I know the Bronte sisters initially wrote under male sounding pseudonyms so the tactic wasn't new.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:45

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
Interesting about the wigs MM.  Didn't the Ptolemys (Ptolemies?) and Cleopatras use wigs for formal occasions?  

They were very conscious of appearing to be just another part of the ancient royal lineage and traditions (precisely because they were so patently nothing of the sort), so wigs during official ceremonies and the like were certainly on the menu! However they'd have done well to recreate or emulate what the "original" royals had used in the creation of their ceremonial wigs.

This is a modern recreation of one (of a set) found in the tomb of three minor wives of Tutmoses III - from around 1500 BCE. It is made of gold, gesso, carnelian, glass and jasper, though others with human hair in them have also been found.



The article I copied it from goes into detail about the history of wig use in Ancient Egypt and makes for fascinating reading.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 20 Apr 2018, 13:33

I had a decko at the article, nordmann.  Interesting though a lot to take in at once.  Tangentially, it made me think of a lady whose husband sublet some space in a firm where I used to work.  They were very strict followers of the Jewish religion - not sure if they belonged to any particular sect but this lady used to wear a very thick wig (not sure if she had a spare or not) because according to their beliefs only her husband was supposed to see her real hair.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 20 Apr 2018, 22:29

@LadyinRetirement wrote:
I had a decko at the article, nordmann.  Interesting though a lot to take in at once.  Tangentially, it made me think of a lady whose husband sublet some space in a firm where I used to work.  They were very strict followers of the Jewish religion - not sure if they belonged to any particular sect but this lady used to wear a very thick wig (not sure if she had a spare or not) because according to their beliefs only her husband was supposed to see her real hair.

Lady,

I don't know what happened. I sent my message, but perhaps while it was still turning I started to download a balderdash site about the Catholic veil and suddenly my "mouse" didn't work anymore and I had to close my computer. In any case my message is gone...
I start again:

First I had to search for the word "sublet". It is already the second word that I learned on this board today...

"They were very strict followers of the Jewish religion - not sure if they belonged to any particular sect but this lady used to wear a very thick wig (not sure if she had a spare or not) because according to their beliefs only her husband was supposed to see her real hair."
yes it is an orthodox Jewish custom...
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/hair-coverings-for-married-women/
As it is from the Muslims...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/hijab_1.shtml

Up to the Fifties, women had to or did, because of the custom, wear an headscarf in the church. I, myself was a witness of that custom.
I have to say that those headscarfs were the normal ones that they also wore outdoors for the cold or the rain.

Did some research and came in a lot of balderdash...I wasn't aware that all these Catholic networks were still that actual on the net (especially from the US)...frightening...while it was not accessible anymore as I visited it several times in a few minutes...and sought at the "about us" and all that, they think perhaps that I am a troll and have some kind of system to make the site unaccessible for me...in any case...I think it were some orthodox from New Hampshire...
So I will restrict to wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_headcovering
And there I learned that the dressing code was changed in 1983.

After all it is perhaps quite normal that the three have some customs in common, as they all three are the Abrahamic religions...

And there, LiR we are again at the religions Wink
But it was stricly about the history of the religions... Wink  and perhaps the word "frightening" was the only value comment that I made

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: Fakers, Faking it and Faked   Fri 20 Apr 2018, 22:48

Lir,

this one is the less frightening one and is from New Hampshire, and not the other one, as I said. That one is still unaccessible, and that for several minutes, when I did work for my wife...and than I have to close the computer to escape and start again...
http://catholicism.org/women-wear-chapel-veils-church.html

Kind regards from Paul.
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