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 "when" conditionalis? time? or both?

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: "when" conditionalis? time? or both?   Sat 22 Feb 2014, 21:42

I have always had some difficulties in Dutch, German and English when I saw the English: "when", the German "wann", "wenn", the Dutch "wanneer, toen, als, indien"###and I even think in French MM? you can have a conditionalis with "quand" and "si"?###

Found for the German wann and wenn:
url=http://german#about#com/library/blconfus_wann#htm
http://german#about#com/library/blconfus_wann#htm#/url#
And I learned now that the German "als" is used with the past tense as our Dutch "toen"###completely different from our Dutch "als" used with a present time for a conditionalis #the Latin conditionalis is dropped I suppose# to be correct it would have to be as in a French conditionalis: in Dutch with the help of the word "zou, zouden" which is I suppose old-fashioned?


For "wanneer, als, toen" in Dutch:

#url=http://taaladvies#net/taal/advies/vraag/1308/#http://taaladvies#net/taal/advies/vraag/1308/#/url#
#u##color=#0066cc#http://taaladvies.net/taal/advies/vraag/892/[/color][/u]

"toen" is always time for a unique event in the past, "als, wanneer" is also time but for a multiple event...
But "als" and "wanneer" can also be used as a conditionalis...not "toen"...

I have the impression that we in our Dutch dialects #at least in the two dialects that I speak# the "wanneer" is always time and the "als" is always "conditionalis"...
And it is unbelievable that we without hesitation apply some difficult forms in the correct way as:

"als ik" #if I# contracted as in the English pronunciation something like: oak
"als jij" #if you" contracted to: oashe
"als hij" 'if he# contracted to: oashtie #I believe with an eloquency "t" in the middle?#
"als zij" #if they# contracted too: oanze #I believe with an eloquency "n" in the middle?#

And what with the English "when"?

Kind regards, Paul.

already more than 15 minutes that I try ot have the three URL's in one message and it doesn't work...
Try again

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: "when" conditionalis? time? or both?   Sun 23 Feb 2014, 13:44

German(ic) language is way more specific in this respect than English, Paul. In English you have not normally committed a grammar crime (not much anyway) when/if you interchange "when" and "if". The only real stricture is on predictive sentences. "If Scotland votes for independence", for example, is very different from saying "When Scotland votes for independence". The option is open either way in one whereas in the second you are indicating an assumption on your part that it will definitely happen at some point in the future.

Otherwise "when" is a reasonably safe word to use if confused, though it is worth pointing out that English still accommodates a rather unique concept of "when and if" (or "when or if") expressed together in the same conditional clause. This is used to indicate a possibility which leans towards probability in its nature, though the latter is not assured. It can also be used to indicate a condition containing one possibility and one probability. One notable example was General Patton's schooner, purchased during the war and about which he was asked once regarding when he hoped to get to sail it (he was otherwise occupied in Europe at the time). He replied that the war would have to be concluded first and that he hoped to survive this event himself. "When and if that time comes I plan to do little else," was his actual reply. He then had the schooner renamed to "When and If".


Patton's schooner, the "When and If"

(For the record he was right to use "when" regarding the war ending, and unfortunately for him just as correct to use "if" regarding his surviving it. Technically he actually did survive the war in Europe - he died 12 days after a car accident that happened on December 9th 1945 - though he was still of course engaged in war-related duties when the mysterious accident occurred. In recent years speculation regarding just how much of an "accident" it was has been significantly ramped up).
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: "when" conditionalis? time? or both?   Sun 23 Feb 2014, 21:42

Thank you so much, Nordmann, for this excellent explanation.

I knew that I with you was on the right address...

Thank you also for the redirecting of the mess of yesterday...

Don't know what happened...it's already the second time on this messageboard...
Not only the URLs...but even the "..." became once "###" and once not...my usual " became once " and another time #

Another peculiarity here when I type for instance "always" it appears as "Always" with a capital and I have to type it again before I succeed with the miniscule "a"...
But I have something similar on the French message board, when I type for instance "message précédent" OOPS I see that it is also on this message board...it appears without "accents" and I have to retype it before it remains as "précédent"


Perhaps my provider? or old fellow windows?

Kind regards and with high esteem,

Paul.
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nordmann
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PostSubject: Re: "when" conditionalis? time? or both?   Sun 23 Feb 2014, 21:44

Spell checker.

I guess what's happening is that you are not using the proper link routine in the editor and therefore the links you copy in as text are subject to the spell checker just like any "normal" text. This would screw things up a lot.

The link button to use is the one to the left of the YouTube button on the editor's taskbar above the text box. Here you can also put in a more friendly version of the link name - that also helps to avoid ending up with huge URLs in your post that can upset formatting of the page for viewers afterwards.
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