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 On this day in history

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Wed 19 Jul 2017, 22:27

Addendum to the previous message.

Nielsen, while I did research about Isabella I came again on one of my favourite women...what a woman...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_York
Sister of Edward IV and Richard III (Minette where are you?)
she was fully intertwined with the so-called War of the Roses. My last book from the local library that I read during the kidney dialysis was about this War of the Roses and I commented it overhere... 
Step grand grand mother of Charles V and third wife of Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy.
From the wiki:
Although the marriage produced no children, Margaret proved a valuable asset to Burgundy. Immediately after her wedding, she journeyed with her stepdaughter Mary through Flanders, Brabant and Hainaut, visiting the great towns: Ursel, Ghent, Dendermonde, Asse, Brussels, Oudenaarde and Kortrijk were all impressed by her intelligence and capability.
Also from the wiki:
It was in the wake of her husband's death that Margaret proved truly invaluable to Burgundy. She had always been regarded as a skilful and intelligent politician; now, she went beyond even that. To her stepdaughter, Mary, now Duchess of Burgundy, she gave immeasurable guidance and help: using her own experiences in the court of Edward IV, where she had largely avoided being used as a pawn and contributed to the arrangement of her own marriage, she wisely guided the Duchess in deciding her marriage; against the wave of marriage offers that flooded to the two Duchesses in Ghent (from the recently widowed Duke of Clarence, from the 7-year old Dauphin of France, Charles, from a brother of Edward IV's wife, Elizabeth Woodville), she stood firm, and advised Mary to marry Maximilian of Habsburg, the 18-year-old son of the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III, to whom Charles the Bold had betrothed Mary, and who was ambitious and active enough, in Margaret's opinion, to defend Mary's legacy.

Now to our subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Austria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_II_of_Denmark

"His wife, Isabella(1501-26) brought their children to court of her aunt,  the regent of the Netherlands, Margaret of Austria"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Austria,_Duchess_of_Savoy


Next to the following addendum...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Wed 19 Jul 2017, 23:02

Addendum to the previous message.

About the "Regentessen of the Netherlands" I read the three books of Jane de Iongh:
http://www.marktplaza.nl/boeken/geschiedenis/Dr.Jane-de-Iongh-De-Hertogin-de-Madama-De-Koningin-33598411.html
The three "regentessen" (governesses?) of the Netherlands:
The Duchess: Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Savoie
Madama: Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza (we call her Margaret of Parma)
The Queen: Mary of Hungary, Governess (Landvoogdes) of the Netherlands.

I found something in English about Jane de Iongh:
https://www.librarything.com/author/ionghjanede

She was women for women...


Short biography
Adriana Wilhelmina de Iongh, called "Jane," and her brother were the children of an artistic family. She studied literature at the University of Amsterdam, with the Italian Renaissance as her doctoral thesis topic in 1924. After graduation, she got a job as a librarian at the Netherlands Economic History Archive (NEHA). She belonged to the small group of professional historians in the Netherlands during the interwar period. In 1935, Jane de Iongh resigned as librarian of the NEHA, to become a board member of both the International Institute of Social History and the International Archives for the Women's Movement (now IIAV). She studied the women's movement and conducted research in Britain and France. In 1936 she published a book that criticized the traditional, prejudiced view of women's role in history as that of wife or lover of a famous man. Jane was a member of the Dutch Society for Women's Interests and Equal Citizenship and the Women's Group of the Liberal Party. In the second half of the 1930s, as she frequently published articles in Dutch periodicals, Jane de Iongh developed into a well-known and respected personality. She worked also for more complete citizenship rights for women. During the German Occupation, she helped fulfill the need for cultural and historical works about the patriotic past by writing two biographies of the great female Regents of the Netherlands in the 16th-century: Margaret of Austria and Maria (or Mary) of Hungary. Her books offered a new interpretation of the political history of the Netherlands. Shortly after the Liberation, Jane de Iongh was named attaché for Education, Arts and Sciences in London, a position she would hold for 10 years. In the 1950s, in ailing health, she lived for a while in the south of French while she completed work on the biography of the third great female ruler of the Netherlands, Margaret, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza.
And but in Dutch but there is a photograph Wink
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/vrouwenlexicon/lemmata/data/Iongh


And:
goo.gl/m7gnqt

The monstrous regiment of women...

Kind regards, Paul.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 15:04

Paul,

I have for some time - actually from a thread on the BBC boards started 2008 called 'Zeven Vereignete Provincïes' -  attempted to make an overview on the history of the Netherlands, from the time of 'de oude Batavier' untill the present days. 
It's not that I'm working or even thinking of this continously but it is in my files and sometimes worth looking at.

Above you mention that the duke of Burgundy ruled what is now called BENELUX, yet some the old Provincïes went deep down into what is now France.

A hobby of mine, nerdish perhaps, but I'd like to know, so sometimes I look, find articles on wiki and other places, write and edit a bit.

Kind regards to you, too.

Nielsen
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 21:58

Nielsen,

you are a "bij de pinken" boy (they translate it in my dictionary with: "be all there").
Yes of course in the time before the Habsburgs, the county of Flanders was a French fief depending from France, but there were also parts of the County which were HRE. The neighbour was the Duchy of Brabant, which was completely HRE. And then you had the Prince-Bishopry of Liège.
But the French king gave then the county of Flanders (in apanage?) to the dukes of Burgundy, who collected then further  the rest of the nowadays Benelux.
And yes the dukes of Burgundy were from Dijon France as you say, thus the had at the end their French duchy in France and at the same time the Benelux (Leo Belgicus). They called it in Dutch "de landen van herwaarst over" the Benelux (in French: les pays de par deçà) and "de landen van derwaarts over"  Duchy de Burgundy and France-Comté (in French: les pays de par delà). For the moment there is a great discussion on the French board Passion Histoire about the difference between I think France-Comté the County of Burgundy? and the Duchy of Burgundy all in France nowadays, but the county was part I think from the HRE. I did for the French a study about l'Alsace-Lorraine (in German (Elzas-Lotharingen). And that "county" played also a role in the troubles from 1870 on till 1945. "Triste histoire"...les malgrés-nous et le massacre d'Oradour....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Flanders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Burgundy

BTW; Duke Charles the Bold wanted to connect his "pays de par deça" with his "pays de par de là"...He was killed by Nancy...Perhaps Louis XI (the spider)? had bribed the Suisses and lurred the duke overthere...I read in the time some fifty years ago a novel about Louis XI, where he was called "the spider" in the middle of his web...if it is hagiography, I don't know...I certainly don't mention it on the French board... Wink
And then the two Burgundies were separated via Maria of Burgundy and the marriage with the HRE emperor Maximilian of Austria with Philip the Handsome as son and then Charles V as son...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Netherlands
From the wiki:
"The Valois era would last until 1477, when Duke Charles the Bold died at the Battle of Nancy leaving no male heir. The territorial Duchy of Burgundy reverted to the French crown according to Salic law, and King Louis XI of France also seized the French portion of the Burgundian possessions in the Low Countries. The Imperial fiefs passed to the Austrian House of Habsburg through Charles' daughter Mary of Burgundy and her husband Archduke Maximilian of Habsburg, son of Emperor Frederick III. Maximilian however regarded the Burgundian Netherlands including Flanders and Artois as the undivided domains of his wife and himself and marched against the French. The conflict culminated at the Battle of Guinegate in 1479. Though Maximilian was victorious, he was only able to gain the County of Flanders according to the 1482 Treaty of Arras after his wife Mary had suddenly died, while France retained Artois.
In her testament, Mary of Burgundy had bequested the Burgundian heritage to her and Maximilian's son, Philip the Handsome. His father, dissatisfied with the terms of the Arras agreement, continued to campaign the seized French territories. In 1493, King Charles VIII of France according to the Treaty of Senlis finally renounced Artois, which together with Flanders was incorporated into the Imperial Seventeen Provinces under the rule of Philip." (Philip the Handsome)

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 22:28

Nielsen,

you said:
"I have for some time - actually from a thread on the BBC boards started 2008 called 'Zeven Vereignete Provincïes' -  attempted to make an overview on the history of the Netherlands, from the time of 'de oude Batavier' untill the present days. 
It's not that I'm working or even thinking of this continously but it is in my files and sometimes worth looking at."

That's the difficulty for most outside "The Netherlands" they confuse the former Netherlands (the seventeen provinces) after the end of Burgundy with the present days "The Netherlands" which is only the North (the "verenigde zeven provinciën) of the former Netherlands (the Low Countries is perhaps better understandable for the English?) These Low Countries, The Netherlands were many times pictured as the "Leo Belgicus"
http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/425-leo-belgicus-rampant-and-passant

As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"?
I suggest to write a history of the Low Countries...
I have a splendid book about it from Jaap ter Haar:
https://www.stormybooks.nl/a-45294770/geschiedenis/jaap-ter-haar-meer-dan-2000-jaar-geschiedenis-van-de-lage-landen/
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/boeken/geschiedenis-vaderland/m1161420800-j-terhaar-meer-dan-2000-jaar-geschiedenis-van-de-lage-lande.html
"Meer dan 2000 jaar geschiedenis van de lage landen"
(More than 2000 years of history of the low countries)
If you start with the schematic sequences I will cover each item in detail...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:37

Hold your horses, Paul, you're giving me credit for something I don't aspire to do.

"... As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"? ..."

Many sensible people will have done that already, what I'm attempting to do is making sense of it to myself. 
Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries.

Added later:

The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein.

Kind regards to you too.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 22 Jul 2017, 21:12

@Nielsen wrote:
Hold your horses, Paul, you're giving me credit for something I don't aspire to do.

"... As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"? ..."

Many sensible people will have done that already, what I'm attempting to do is making sense of it to myself. 
Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries.

Added later:

The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein.

Kind regards to you too.

Nielsen,

thank you for your reply...

"Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries."
Ask, Nielsen, ask...I know a bit about it...
But for the moment a bit overwhelmed by all the "new" subjects, which "emerge" and where I want to contribute to... Wink

"The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein."
Thanks to mention that..in due time I will try to seek for the parallels...

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 05:54

28th July, 1586:  The first potatoes arrive in England, courtesy of Colombia, brought in by Sir Thomas Harriot, who was a scientist and mathematician.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 08:54

Thomas Harriot is widely credited with introducing the potato to England after his voyage to what would become Virginia in North America. However potatoes were already known in Spain and its empire - which included the Netherlands just across the North Sea – from about 1565 (eg. some potatoes are recorded as arriving in Antwerp in a ship from the Canaries in 1567). Potatoes seem to have first arrived in England independently and it is certainly true that by the 1590s, potatoes, then called "Openhauks", were being grown around Raleigh's estates at Youghal near Cork. Harriot described his adventures in ‘A Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia.’ (publ. 1588), in which he describes the curious tuber:

"The second part of suche commodities as Virginia is knowne to yeelde for victuall and su-stenance of mans life, vsually fed vpon by the naturall inhabitants: as also by vs during the time of our aboad. And first of such as are sowed and husbanded. Openavk are a kind of roots of round forme, some of the bignes of walnuts, some far greater, which are found in moist & marish grounds growing many together one by another in ropes, or as thogh they were fastnened with a string. Being boiled or sodden they are very good meate."
 
But the thing is, potatoes are not native to North America. The white, waxy spud originated in the highlands of what are now Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, and so became known to the Spanish with the conquest of the Incan Empire, (and similarly the the sweet potato is a native to the Carribean and was also first encountered by the Spanish). So the so-called Virginia potatoes that Thomas Herriot brought back to England must have originally been introduced to North America from somewhere else. Perhaps they had been introduced by the Spanish when they made the first exploratory incursions into the area in the 1540s and 50s. It has even been suggested that it was Raleigh’s expedition itself that first introduced the potato into Virginia, although given Harriot’s report that seems rather unlikely. Either way by the time of Raleigh’s 1685 expedition potatoes were already in use as an easily storable food onboard trans-Atlantic ships, both Spanish and Portuguese, and indeed those of Basque fishermen who were operating around the Grand Banks off Newfoundland.

Anyway, it seems a potatoey 'Dish of the Day' is called for.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 10:43

Meles meles,

"But the thing is, potatoes are not native to North America. The white, waxy spud originated in the highlands of what are now Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, and so became known to the Spanish with the conquest of the Incan Empire, (and similarly the the sweet potato is a native to the Carribean and was also first encountered by the Spanish). So the so-called Virginia potatoes that Thomas Herriot brought back to England must have originally been introduced to North America from somewhere else. Perhaps they had been introduced by the Spanish when they made the first exploratory incursions into the area in the 1540s and 50s. It has even been suggested that it was Raleigh’s expedition itself that first introduced the potato into Virginia, although given Harriot’s report that seems rather unlikely. Either way by the time of Raleigh’s 1685 expedition potatoes were already in use as an easily storable food onboard trans-Atlantic ships, both Spanish and Portuguese, and indeed those of Basque fishermen who were operating around the Grand Banks off Newfoundland."

Of course you are right. Here in Dutch they call it an "aardappel" (an apple from the earth), but in our Flemish dialect we say "patat"
And about the delicious product from potatoes we have even a museum in Bruges:
http://www.frietmuseum.be/en/museum.htm
The history of the potato is very well represented (I was there), but on their site you don't find anything about it, only this:
http://www.frietmuseum.be/en/history.htm

But here you have it in full (I suppose it is written by a Belgian, while in my humble opinion it is a bit Belgian-centred...)
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/09/the-history-of-french-fries/
From the above link...this one I find a good one, apocryphally or not Wink
"When the potato was first introduced to Ireland and Scotland, it was met with quite a bit of resistance from Protestants there, due to the fact that the potato wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the Bible; thus, it wasn’t clear whether it was acceptable to eat, so they refused to plant them at first.  The Catholics, on the other hand, chose to sprinkle them with holy water before planting, thus making them acceptable to plant and eat."

Kind regards from Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Tue 15 Aug 2017, 14:25

15 August 1965:

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