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 On this day in history

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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Wed 19 Jul 2017, 22:27

Addendum to the previous message.

Nielsen, while I did research about Isabella I came again on one of my favourite women...what a woman...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_York
Sister of Edward IV and Richard III (Minette where are you?)
she was fully intertwined with the so-called War of the Roses. My last book from the local library that I read during the kidney dialysis was about this War of the Roses and I commented it overhere... 
Step grand grand mother of Charles V and third wife of Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy.
From the wiki:
Although the marriage produced no children, Margaret proved a valuable asset to Burgundy. Immediately after her wedding, she journeyed with her stepdaughter Mary through Flanders, Brabant and Hainaut, visiting the great towns: Ursel, Ghent, Dendermonde, Asse, Brussels, Oudenaarde and Kortrijk were all impressed by her intelligence and capability.
Also from the wiki:
It was in the wake of her husband's death that Margaret proved truly invaluable to Burgundy. She had always been regarded as a skilful and intelligent politician; now, she went beyond even that. To her stepdaughter, Mary, now Duchess of Burgundy, she gave immeasurable guidance and help: using her own experiences in the court of Edward IV, where she had largely avoided being used as a pawn and contributed to the arrangement of her own marriage, she wisely guided the Duchess in deciding her marriage; against the wave of marriage offers that flooded to the two Duchesses in Ghent (from the recently widowed Duke of Clarence, from the 7-year old Dauphin of France, Charles, from a brother of Edward IV's wife, Elizabeth Woodville), she stood firm, and advised Mary to marry Maximilian of Habsburg, the 18-year-old son of the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III, to whom Charles the Bold had betrothed Mary, and who was ambitious and active enough, in Margaret's opinion, to defend Mary's legacy.

Now to our subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_of_Austria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_II_of_Denmark

"His wife, Isabella(1501-26) brought their children to court of her aunt,  the regent of the Netherlands, Margaret of Austria"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_of_Austria,_Duchess_of_Savoy


Next to the following addendum...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Wed 19 Jul 2017, 23:02

Addendum to the previous message.

About the "Regentessen of the Netherlands" I read the three books of Jane de Iongh:
http://www.marktplaza.nl/boeken/geschiedenis/Dr.Jane-de-Iongh-De-Hertogin-de-Madama-De-Koningin-33598411.html
The three "regentessen" (governesses?) of the Netherlands:
The Duchess: Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Savoie
Madama: Margaret of Austria, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza (we call her Margaret of Parma)
The Queen: Mary of Hungary, Governess (Landvoogdes) of the Netherlands.

I found something in English about Jane de Iongh:
https://www.librarything.com/author/ionghjanede

She was women for women...


Short biography
Adriana Wilhelmina de Iongh, called "Jane," and her brother were the children of an artistic family. She studied literature at the University of Amsterdam, with the Italian Renaissance as her doctoral thesis topic in 1924. After graduation, she got a job as a librarian at the Netherlands Economic History Archive (NEHA). She belonged to the small group of professional historians in the Netherlands during the interwar period. In 1935, Jane de Iongh resigned as librarian of the NEHA, to become a board member of both the International Institute of Social History and the International Archives for the Women's Movement (now IIAV). She studied the women's movement and conducted research in Britain and France. In 1936 she published a book that criticized the traditional, prejudiced view of women's role in history as that of wife or lover of a famous man. Jane was a member of the Dutch Society for Women's Interests and Equal Citizenship and the Women's Group of the Liberal Party. In the second half of the 1930s, as she frequently published articles in Dutch periodicals, Jane de Iongh developed into a well-known and respected personality. She worked also for more complete citizenship rights for women. During the German Occupation, she helped fulfill the need for cultural and historical works about the patriotic past by writing two biographies of the great female Regents of the Netherlands in the 16th-century: Margaret of Austria and Maria (or Mary) of Hungary. Her books offered a new interpretation of the political history of the Netherlands. Shortly after the Liberation, Jane de Iongh was named attaché for Education, Arts and Sciences in London, a position she would hold for 10 years. In the 1950s, in ailing health, she lived for a while in the south of French while she completed work on the biography of the third great female ruler of the Netherlands, Margaret, Duchess of Parma and Piacenza.
And but in Dutch but there is a photograph Wink
http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/vrouwenlexicon/lemmata/data/Iongh


And:
goo.gl/m7gnqt

The monstrous regiment of women...

Kind regards, Paul.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 15:04

Paul,

I have for some time - actually from a thread on the BBC boards started 2008 called 'Zeven Vereignete Provincïes' -  attempted to make an overview on the history of the Netherlands, from the time of 'de oude Batavier' untill the present days. 
It's not that I'm working or even thinking of this continously but it is in my files and sometimes worth looking at.

Above you mention that the duke of Burgundy ruled what is now called BENELUX, yet some the old Provincïes went deep down into what is now France.

A hobby of mine, nerdish perhaps, but I'd like to know, so sometimes I look, find articles on wiki and other places, write and edit a bit.

Kind regards to you, too.

Nielsen
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 21:58

Nielsen,

you are a "bij de pinken" boy (they translate it in my dictionary with: "be all there").
Yes of course in the time before the Habsburgs, the county of Flanders was a French fief depending from France, but there were also parts of the County which were HRE. The neighbour was the Duchy of Brabant, which was completely HRE. And then you had the Prince-Bishopry of Liège.
But the French king gave then the county of Flanders (in apanage?) to the dukes of Burgundy, who collected then further  the rest of the nowadays Benelux.
And yes the dukes of Burgundy were from Dijon France as you say, thus the had at the end their French duchy in France and at the same time the Benelux (Leo Belgicus). They called it in Dutch "de landen van herwaarst over" the Benelux (in French: les pays de par deçà) and "de landen van derwaarts over"  Duchy de Burgundy and France-Comté (in French: les pays de par delà). For the moment there is a great discussion on the French board Passion Histoire about the difference between I think France-Comté the County of Burgundy? and the Duchy of Burgundy all in France nowadays, but the county was part I think from the HRE. I did for the French a study about l'Alsace-Lorraine (in German (Elzas-Lotharingen). And that "county" played also a role in the troubles from 1870 on till 1945. "Triste histoire"...les malgrés-nous et le massacre d'Oradour....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Flanders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Burgundy

BTW; Duke Charles the Bold wanted to connect his "pays de par deça" with his "pays de par de là"...He was killed by Nancy...Perhaps Louis XI (the spider)? had bribed the Suisses and lurred the duke overthere...I read in the time some fifty years ago a novel about Louis XI, where he was called "the spider" in the middle of his web...if it is hagiography, I don't know...I certainly don't mention it on the French board... Wink
And then the two Burgundies were separated via Maria of Burgundy and the marriage with the HRE emperor Maximilian of Austria with Philip the Handsome as son and then Charles V as son...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Netherlands
From the wiki:
"The Valois era would last until 1477, when Duke Charles the Bold died at the Battle of Nancy leaving no male heir. The territorial Duchy of Burgundy reverted to the French crown according to Salic law, and King Louis XI of France also seized the French portion of the Burgundian possessions in the Low Countries. The Imperial fiefs passed to the Austrian House of Habsburg through Charles' daughter Mary of Burgundy and her husband Archduke Maximilian of Habsburg, son of Emperor Frederick III. Maximilian however regarded the Burgundian Netherlands including Flanders and Artois as the undivided domains of his wife and himself and marched against the French. The conflict culminated at the Battle of Guinegate in 1479. Though Maximilian was victorious, he was only able to gain the County of Flanders according to the 1482 Treaty of Arras after his wife Mary had suddenly died, while France retained Artois.
In her testament, Mary of Burgundy had bequested the Burgundian heritage to her and Maximilian's son, Philip the Handsome. His father, dissatisfied with the terms of the Arras agreement, continued to campaign the seized French territories. In 1493, King Charles VIII of France according to the Treaty of Senlis finally renounced Artois, which together with Flanders was incorporated into the Imperial Seventeen Provinces under the rule of Philip." (Philip the Handsome)

Kind regards, Paul.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 20 Jul 2017, 22:28

Nielsen,

you said:
"I have for some time - actually from a thread on the BBC boards started 2008 called 'Zeven Vereignete Provincïes' -  attempted to make an overview on the history of the Netherlands, from the time of 'de oude Batavier' untill the present days. 
It's not that I'm working or even thinking of this continously but it is in my files and sometimes worth looking at."

That's the difficulty for most outside "The Netherlands" they confuse the former Netherlands (the seventeen provinces) after the end of Burgundy with the present days "The Netherlands" which is only the North (the "verenigde zeven provinciën) of the former Netherlands (the Low Countries is perhaps better understandable for the English?) These Low Countries, The Netherlands were many times pictured as the "Leo Belgicus"
http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/425-leo-belgicus-rampant-and-passant

As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"?
I suggest to write a history of the Low Countries...
I have a splendid book about it from Jaap ter Haar:
https://www.stormybooks.nl/a-45294770/geschiedenis/jaap-ter-haar-meer-dan-2000-jaar-geschiedenis-van-de-lage-landen/
https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/boeken/geschiedenis-vaderland/m1161420800-j-terhaar-meer-dan-2000-jaar-geschiedenis-van-de-lage-lande.html
"Meer dan 2000 jaar geschiedenis van de lage landen"
(More than 2000 years of history of the low countries)
If you start with the schematic sequences I will cover each item in detail...

Kind regards from Paul.
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Fri 21 Jul 2017, 10:37

Hold your horses, Paul, you're giving me credit for something I don't aspire to do.

"... As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"? ..."

Many sensible people will have done that already, what I'm attempting to do is making sense of it to myself. 
Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries.

Added later:

The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein.

Kind regards to you too.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 22 Jul 2017, 21:12

Nielsen wrote:
Hold your horses, Paul, you're giving me credit for something I don't aspire to do.

"... As I understand it you want to write about the history of the present day "Netherlands"? ..."

Many sensible people will have done that already, what I'm attempting to do is making sense of it to myself. 
Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries.

Added later:

The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein.

Kind regards to you too.

Nielsen,

thank you for your reply...

"Including understanding how the feudal system first came to be abolished, the nobility gradually lost their powers, and how the import of wool from the eastern English areas led to the richness of the towns in these Low Countries."
Ask, Nielsen, ask...I know a bit about it...
But for the moment a bit overwhelmed by all the "new" subjects, which "emerge" and where I want to contribute to... Wink

"The situation regarding an area being under the disputed suzerainty of two kings, is really quite comparable to the situation in Schleswig-Holstein, with one duchy being under Danish suzerainty, and the other under the HRE, yet with the King of Denmark being Duke of both places, thus promising fealty to the HRE Emperor until 1806. and being a member of the German Confederation between 1815-66 as Duke of Holstein."
Thanks to mention that..in due time I will try to seek for the parallels...

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 05:54

28th July, 1586:  The first potatoes arrive in England, courtesy of Colombia, brought in by Sir Thomas Harriot, who was a scientist and mathematician.
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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 08:54

Thomas Harriot is widely credited with introducing the potato to England after his voyage to what would become Virginia in North America. However potatoes were already known in Spain and its empire - which included the Netherlands just across the North Sea – from about 1565 (eg. some potatoes are recorded as arriving in Antwerp in a ship from the Canaries in 1567). Potatoes seem to have first arrived in England independently and it is certainly true that by the 1590s, potatoes, then called "Openhauks", were being grown around Raleigh's estates at Youghal near Cork. Harriot described his adventures in ‘A Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia.’ (publ. 1588), in which he describes the curious tuber:

"The second part of suche commodities as Virginia is knowne to yeelde for victuall and su-stenance of mans life, vsually fed vpon by the naturall inhabitants: as also by vs during the time of our aboad. And first of such as are sowed and husbanded. Openavk are a kind of roots of round forme, some of the bignes of walnuts, some far greater, which are found in moist & marish grounds growing many together one by another in ropes, or as thogh they were fastnened with a string. Being boiled or sodden they are very good meate."
 
But the thing is, potatoes are not native to North America. The white, waxy spud originated in the highlands of what are now Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, and so became known to the Spanish with the conquest of the Incan Empire, (and similarly the the sweet potato is a native to the Carribean and was also first encountered by the Spanish). So the so-called Virginia potatoes that Thomas Herriot brought back to England must have originally been introduced to North America from somewhere else. Perhaps they had been introduced by the Spanish when they made the first exploratory incursions into the area in the 1540s and 50s. It has even been suggested that it was Raleigh’s expedition itself that first introduced the potato into Virginia, although given Harriot’s report that seems rather unlikely. Either way by the time of Raleigh’s 1685 expedition potatoes were already in use as an easily storable food onboard trans-Atlantic ships, both Spanish and Portuguese, and indeed those of Basque fishermen who were operating around the Grand Banks off Newfoundland.

Anyway, it seems a potatoey 'Dish of the Day' is called for.
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PaulRyckier
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 29 Jul 2017, 10:43

Meles meles,

"But the thing is, potatoes are not native to North America. The white, waxy spud originated in the highlands of what are now Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador, and so became known to the Spanish with the conquest of the Incan Empire, (and similarly the the sweet potato is a native to the Carribean and was also first encountered by the Spanish). So the so-called Virginia potatoes that Thomas Herriot brought back to England must have originally been introduced to North America from somewhere else. Perhaps they had been introduced by the Spanish when they made the first exploratory incursions into the area in the 1540s and 50s. It has even been suggested that it was Raleigh’s expedition itself that first introduced the potato into Virginia, although given Harriot’s report that seems rather unlikely. Either way by the time of Raleigh’s 1685 expedition potatoes were already in use as an easily storable food onboard trans-Atlantic ships, both Spanish and Portuguese, and indeed those of Basque fishermen who were operating around the Grand Banks off Newfoundland."

Of course you are right. Here in Dutch they call it an "aardappel" (an apple from the earth), but in our Flemish dialect we say "patat"
And about the delicious product from potatoes we have even a museum in Bruges:
http://www.frietmuseum.be/en/museum.htm
The history of the potato is very well represented (I was there), but on their site you don't find anything about it, only this:
http://www.frietmuseum.be/en/history.htm

But here you have it in full (I suppose it is written by a Belgian, while in my humble opinion it is a bit Belgian-centred...)
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/09/the-history-of-french-fries/
From the above link...this one I find a good one, apocryphally or not Wink
"When the potato was first introduced to Ireland and Scotland, it was met with quite a bit of resistance from Protestants there, due to the fact that the potato wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the Bible; thus, it wasn’t clear whether it was acceptable to eat, so they refused to plant them at first.  The Catholics, on the other hand, chose to sprinkle them with holy water before planting, thus making them acceptable to plant and eat."

Kind regards from Paul.
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Triceratops
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Tue 15 Aug 2017, 14:25

15 August 1965:

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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Mon 28 Aug 2017, 23:45

27 or 28 August:  55BC, the Romans came to Britain staying for the next few hundred years.

1769:  Captain James Cook set off on an expedition to look for the Transit of Venus, and goes to look for the great southern continent, in the course of which he lands on NZ, the first expedition there since Abel Tasman who didn't come ashore.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 31 Aug 2017, 14:54

This was 20 years ago:
wiki:

Henri Paul, the deputy head of security at the Ritz Hotel, had been instructed to drive the hired black 1994 Mercedes-Benz S280 in order to elude the paparazzi; a decoy vehicle left the Ritz first from the main entrance on Place Vendôme, attracting a throng of photographers. Diana and Fayed then departed from the hotel's rear entrance, rue Cambon at around 00:20 on 31 August CEST (22:20 on 30 August UTC), heading for the apartment in Rue Arsène Houssaye. They did this to avoid the nearly 30 photographers waiting in the front of the hotel. They were the rear passengers; Trevor Rees-Jones, a member of the Fayed family's personal protection team, was in the (right) front passenger seat. It was believed that Diana and Dodi were not wearing seat belts.

After leaving the rue Cambon and crossing the Place de la Concorde, they drove along Cours la Reine and Cours Albert 1er – the embankment road along the right bank of the River Seine – into the Place de l'Alma underpass. At around 12:23 a.m., at the entrance to the tunnel, Paul lost control; the car swerved to the left of the two-lane carriageway before colliding head-on with the 13th pillar supporting the roof at an estimated speed of 105 km/h (65 mph). It then spun and hit the stone wall of the tunnel backwards, finally coming to a stop. The impact caused substantial damage, particularly to the front half of the vehicle, as there was no guard rail between the pillars to prevent this. Witnesses arriving shortly after the accident reported smoke. Witnesses also reported that photographers on motorcycles "swarmed the Mercedes sedan before it entered the tunnel."
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Nielsen
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 02 Sep 2017, 08:03

This was 210 years ago




The Second Battle of Copenhagen (or the Bombardment of Copenhagen) (16 August – 5 September 1807) was a British bombardment of the Danish capital, Copenhagen in order to capture or destroy the Dano-Norwegian fleet, during the Napoleonic Wars. The incident led to the outbreak of the Anglo-Russian War of 1807, which ended with the Treaty of Örebro in 1812.
Britain's first response to Napoleon's Continental system was to launch a major naval attack on the weakest link in Napoleon's coalition, Denmark. Although ostensibly neutral, Denmark was under heavy French and Russian pressure to pledge its fleet to Napoleon. In September 1807, the Royal Navy bombarded Copenhagen, seizing the Danish fleet, and assured use of the sea lanes in the North Sea and Baltic Sea for the British merchant fleet. A consequence of the attack was that Denmark did join the war on the side of France, but without a fleet it had little to offer.[2]
The attack gave rise to the term to Copenhagenize, and the British bombardment is historically sometimes referred to as the first ever air strike on civilians.



Further in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen_(1807)



Edited in order to avoid unnecessary duplication.
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Caro
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sun 03 Sep 2017, 07:18

1752: The Julian calendar was abandoned in England and they changed to the Gregorian one, skipping 11 days in September.  What I am not sure of is: if we are looking at dates before that are they shown in the Julian calendar or the Gregorian one?  I presume it is the Julian one but I am not sure.  Especially when a famous person's birthday, eg Shakespeare or Queen Elizabeth I, is being talked about.  Or the anniversary of some event.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sun 03 Sep 2017, 09:54

Caro, 

To make thing simple, NOT, the different countries within the UK changed at different times, and, alas, I can't find the relevant references, but the use of Old /New Style is an ofshot of that change.

Some people in England felt that theyd been robbed of these 11 days and made elder without any compensation.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sun 03 Sep 2017, 22:02

Nielsen wrote:
This was 210 years ago




The Second Battle of Copenhagen (or the Bombardment of Copenhagen) (16 August – 5 September 1807) was a British bombardment of the Danish capital, Copenhagen in order to capture or destroy the Dano-Norwegian fleet, during the Napoleonic Wars. The incident led to the outbreak of the Anglo-Russian War of 1807, which ended with the Treaty of Örebro in 1812.
Britain's first response to Napoleon's Continental system was to launch a major naval attack on the weakest link in Napoleon's coalition, Denmark. Although ostensibly neutral, Denmark was under heavy French and Russian pressure to pledge its fleet to Napoleon. In September 1807, the Royal Navy bombarded Copenhagen, seizing the Danish fleet, and assured use of the sea lanes in the North Sea and Baltic Sea for the British merchant fleet. A consequence of the attack was that Denmark did join the war on the side of France, but without a fleet it had little to offer.[2]
The attack gave rise to the term to Copenhagenize, and the British bombardment is historically sometimes referred to as the first ever air strike on civilians.



Further in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen_(1807)



Edited in order to avoid unnecessary duplication.


Nielsen,

I am nearly sure that you last year mentioned also this battle while I did a whole research to better understand it and I mentioned it all to you. But you are right to start it again, while that of last year is gone.
When I searched for it I saw that Nordmann has taken away all that from before October 2016 or something like this time. All my messages from before are gone. It is a lesson for me, to save it when I contribute something of value where I did a whole evening research for.
I have done it now for this year for fear that a Nordmann, hope that he is not in an awful condition or even worser, do the same for this year.

Kind regards from your friend Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sun 03 Sep 2017, 23:20

Oh Paul, if you want the man back, never suggest he takes stuff off! I have got into a mess over this  twice. The first time - well, we'll never know what happened - and it was about one of your posts, too, then, later, I said that something of mine had probably been deleted - I was deleting stuff of my own at that time but was misunderstood and told I must apologise for suggesting he had and that the site people sometimes gave threads a short back and sides trim but he never did. Thus are small issues fanned to an exchange of warring words. It's probably boring and onerous to keep a site going especially when so few now contribute - even fewer during holiday times. He is probably bored with us all.


Last edited by Priscilla on Mon 04 Sep 2017, 11:45; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Mon 04 Sep 2017, 10:34

Paul,

I don't think your posts have been deleted ... as far as I can see all posts are still there under their original subject/sections right back to January 2012. However if I do a search to show "all posts by ...", then it is true it only lists the posts for that person back for just 9 pages ... which for you currently cuts off in October 2016 and for me is a month or so more recent. This however seems to be solely an error/limitation of the search facility. As I say it currently will not display any more posts than occupy the last 9 pages, but all the actual posts themselves do still seem to be in place.

Regarding your "lost" earlier post about the Battle of Copehagen (1807) you did, in response to Nielsen, post a comment and wiki link about it on this thread on 12 April 2017.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Mon 04 Sep 2017, 21:19

Meles meles wrote:
Paul,

I don't think your posts have been deleted ... as far as I can see all posts are still there under their original subject/sections right back to January 2012. However if I do a search to show "all posts by ...", then it is true it only lists the posts for that person back for just 9 pages ... which for you currently cuts off in October 2016 and for me is a month or so more recent. This however seems to be solely an error/limitation of the search facility. As I say it currently will not display any more posts than occupy the last 9 pages, but all the actual posts themselves do still seem to be in place.

Regarding your "lost" earlier post about the Battle of Copehagen (1807) you did, in response to Nielsen, post a comment and wiki link about it on this thread on 12 April 2017.


Meles meles,


thanks to your analytical approach I found all what you promised...have now to apologize to four persons, MM, Priscilla, Nielsen and last but not least, Nordmann  Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed
And you Meles meles with your heavy workload have found it so quickly...have to say that I am many times a bit in an urge and then take conclusions without further research, especially in such cases...
A weak apology is perhaps that I too have a heavy workload in guiding an onerous household...
But that is perhaps more talk for the "tumbleweed" café...while I have a bit time I searched for "tumbleweed"..."tumbleweed suite" what a poetic and thought provoking name Wink
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbleweed
From the wiki: symbolism:
"It has come to represent locations that are desolate, dry, and often humourless, with few or no occupants." Yes "the tumbleweed suite"
If this is from Nordmann, allez, chapeau Nordmann.

To come back to the subject:
Apologies to Nielsen too, while the first entry of 12 April was about the first battle of 1801 and now is it about the end of the second battle of 1807 Embarassed

And you see Priscilla I brought you again on a wrong road... Embarassed

And to Nordmann,

when I searched on my name in the BBC messageboard for the Case Yellow/Red thread, I had some thousands of messages to go through...yes it is perhaps better to limit it on 9 pages...
Apologies to you too... Embarassed  I hope from the bottom of my heart that I have not to say: Nordmann, in "blessed memory?"...OOPS...perhaps
better in happy memory...you have to understand Nordmann, if you still read this, we from a Roman-Catholic country are so sticked in old speech that we sometimes forget that times are changed...

And the previous is perhaps also for the Tumbleweed Café...

Kind regards to the four of you, who I all consider as my friends
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Wed 20 Sep 2017, 15:14

Fifty years ago today, the launch of the last of the Clyde built liners:

ignore the turkeys at the beginning.

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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Sat 30 Sep 2017, 18:52

With a controversial independence referendum taking place today in Catalunya, here's an incident from Catalan history:


The Battle of the Col de Parnissars, fought on 30 September 1285, was the culmination of the Aragonese crusade, a papally-sactioned crusade against his most catholic majesty the King of Aragon. The whole sorry saga is one of those typical medieval tales of pride, arrogance, dynastic rivalry, brutality and betrayal, in which nearly everyone involved dies horribly, including for once, some of the principal instigators of all the trouble.

It started in 1282 when the island of Sicily revolted against the harsh regime of Charles I, King of Naples and uncle to the French king Philip III, who had conquered the island 16 years earlier. Having slaughtered most of the pro-French population but now faced with imminent reprisals by Charles, the rebellious Sicilians turned to Peter (Pero) III of Aragon to help deliver them from French dominion. An Aragonese fleet under Peter himself duly arrived and the Sicilians offered him the throne of Sicily, which he accepted. However Pope Martin IV, who was French, sided with his fellow countrymen and promptly excommunicated the Sicilian rebels, and then for good measure excommunicated King Peter and granted the entire kingdom of Aragon to Charles, Count of Valois, the brother of the French king.

King Peter’s brother was James (Jaume) II of Majorca, and he controlled the critical county of Roussillon located between France and Aragon. But Peter had originally opposed James' inheritance as a younger son, and so to spite his older brother, James now sided with the French, giving them free passage through his territory. In the summer of 1284 King Philip III of France and Count Charles entered Roussillon with a large army of over 100,000 men, but while the French had King James' support, the local populace of Roussillon rose against them. The city of Elne in particular was stoutly defended by the so-called Bâtard de Roussillon, the illegitimate son of the Count of Roussillon. But eventually Elne fell, the cathedral and city were burned, and the population was massacred … all save the Bâtard who succeeded in negotiating his own surrender. He then accompanied the advancing French forces as an ‘honourable’ prisoner.

The next obstacle to the French was the Pyrenees. The only road across the mountains was the old roman Via Domitia which passed through the Col de Parnissars, and it was here that Peter of Aragon had assembled his army. The French briefly tried to force the route but with Peter in control of the narrow pass and all the surrounding high ground they turned back. They were at a loss how to proceed until unexpected help came from the prior of a local abbey who offered to show them a hidden track that lead along a rocky gorge and then up through thick forest to the summit ridge. Led by the monks a small French force managed to take control of the ridge and over the following days French engineers cleared a route wide enough for the whole army to get across the mountains and around Peter’s army.

Having crossed the Pyrenees Philip razed a few villages and then entrenched himself before the city of Girona in an attempt to besiege it into surrender. The resistance was strong however and the city was only taken months later in spring 1285. Charles was crowned there although without the actual crown (as Peter was still in possession of it): in its place the papal legate, Jean Cholet, placed his own cardinal’s hat on the count's head. For this Charles was derisively but not unaffectionately nicknamed roi du chapeau ("king of the hat"). It was the high point of the French endeavours: thereafter their fortunes rapidly reversed.

The heat of summer brought disease and the French camp was hit hard by an epidemic of dysentery with Philip himself being afflicted. Then in September the supporting French fleet was utterly destroyed by the Aragonese navy which had newly arrived back from Sicily. Increasingly ravaged by disease, running low on supplies, lacking naval support, and with morale and troops ebbing away, Philip and Charles were forced to beat a retreat. But Peter’s army was still grouped in the Pyrenees behind them and so was now blocking the return route to France. Philip opened negotiations with Peter for free passage for himself and his family back through the Col de Parnissars. But no such passage was asked for, nor offered, for any of his troops. On 30 September the French royal family slipped through the pass and abandoned the rest of the army to be slaughtered at the Battle of the Col de Parnissars. Philip and his family scuttled down to Perpignan, the capital of James of Majorca, and there Philip died (he may actually have died two days earlier as they came through the pass). He was finally buried at Narbonne, the closest French city. His son, Philip IV (the Fair), inherited the French kingdom but his father’s attempt to conquer Aragon had very nearly bankrupted the French monarchy and so his entire reign was handicapped by a chronic shortage of cash.

King Peter of Aragon only enjoyed his victory for a few weeks. On 11 November he too succumbed to illness, possibly dysentery again. He was succeeded by his son Alphonso III, but he died just a few years later in 1291 at the age of 26. Charles I, the king of Naples whose harsh rule in Sicily kick-started the whole saga, had died early in 1285 of a sudden illness. His death was followed just weeks later by that of Pope Martin IV who expired after a reign of only four years and one month. Charles of Valois, "roi de chapeau", lived until 1325, but having failed to take the Kingdom of Aragon he never dared use the title and eventually renounced all claim to it. As the historian H.J. Chaytor aptly said, the Aragonese Crusade was, "perhaps the most unjust, unnecessary and calamitous enterprise ever undertaken by the Capetian monarchy.”

Only James, King of Majorca, prospered. Over the following decades of his reign he devoted himself to reforming the governance of his cities, increasing the power of the crown over that of the church and nobility, improving trade and agriculture, building up the economy, and on strengthening his country's defence. James died peacefully in his bed in 1311 at the respectable age of 67, and was succeeded by his son, Sancho the Peaceful, whose reign, unlike his father's, was markedly undisturbed by turmoil. The reigns of James and Sancho were a golden period for Catalan art, culture, power, prestige and prosperity.
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PostSubject: Re: On this day in history   Thu 05 Oct 2017, 11:55

5 October 1914, in what is generally recognised as the first air combat victory in history, a French Voisin III shoots down a German Aviatik B II near the village of Jonchery-sur-Vesle.

The French plane was armed with a Hotchkiss 8mm machine gun. It's crew, consisting of pilot Sergeant Joseph Frantz and observer/gunner Corporal Louis Quenault were feted by the French public and newspapers. Frantz being awarded a Legion of Honour and Quenault a Medal Millitaire.
The two Germans, observer Oberleutnant Fritz von Zangen and pilot Sergeant Wilhelm Schlichting were both killed.

Frantz (left) and Quenault
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