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 Religions - The Benefits

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Meles meles
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 12:44

nordmann wrote:
It played a role or, better said, it played a role already defined back in Roman times which it continued for purely its own reasons. In terms of modern standards, and in terms of communal good however, the city guilds and then the railways probably played a greater one.

It crossed my mind too when I posted today on Paul R's "month" thread that accurate time-keeping was a possible benefit of religion. In particular clocks, clockwork mechanisms (which I had already specifically mentioned on this thread), and the associated demands of intricate gear-making for precision instruments etc ... undoubtedly owe some gratitude to the finnicky demands of the monasteries and their largely esoteric demands for accurate time-keeping. But outside of the religious houses, accurate clocks were of little interest or benefit to the average European for the next 500 years or so ... until trans-oceanic sea navigation and trade, stage-coaches, and then the railways and telegraph, demanded accurate, precise and standard time-keeping over large geographic distances, by which time simple monastic clocks had been completely surpassed by the current needs of science and engineering.

In the 13th century, the monastic houses' excessive fussing over the exact timing for nones and lauds didn't really lead to any immediately useful spin-offs, or at least none that would be of any relevance to the rest of society for at least another few hundred years ... by which time the demands of war, central government, industry, local business and international trade would have, and indeed did, of their own necessity lead to the development of clockwork/gearing/springs/metrology/calculus/etc.


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 13:29

In Italian cities going back to the early Middle Ages there was also an equivalent of today's "stock exchange close" when a town clock was rung to indicate close of trade. This was necessary as the usurers ran a collaborative system for setting interest rates on loans etc and couldn't risk that one of them might steal a march on the other. It was also they who first attempted to synchronise clocks between towns, for the same reasons. The same system was also handy for getting apprentices out of bed at uniform times to start their working day etc (not to mention just about everyone else too once everyone got used to it). For this reason the really fancy communal clocks were financed by the guilds and corporations, and the same is true in just about every European town from that period onwards. You can even see it today in the general absence of clocks on cathedrals but their almost compulsory situation on town hall spires and guild headquarters etc.

So while the church might take some of the credit for keeping the interest in clocks going, the real impetus in their development into what we have today (for better or for worse) seems to have been when they began to be used for more commercial applications.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 14:56

But you did say, nordmann, on the 'month' thread 


"In the 12th century, coincidentally as reliable clocks were making their appearance, it was indeed the church which attempted to impose some order (pardon the pun) on things. The nones prayers were switched to the sixth hour after the ideal daybreak time (with more than one eye on productivity, I reckon) and this became set as midday. Midnight was then automatically set along with all the other hours of the day.

It still took another two centuries before Europe as a whole adopted the standard. And it seems to have been a standard spread through urban and religious rather than purely agricultural communities. As ever, those whose routines were dictated by available light and prevailing seasonal shifts couldn't care a hoot what others called the time of day or why, or indeed however clever a clock might be at measuring it."


No mention of railways here. So I claim this matter a small but definite benefit of religion.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 11:25

Like it or not,I claim pancakes on Shrove Tuesday a benefit of religion that stayed long after the reason for it fades in memory. I do not know if this is just a UK tradition but long may it last.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 12:05

Errr ... In ancient Rome, ova spongia ex lacte (Apicius, 'De Re Coqinaria') was a simple batter of flour, eggs, milk, and olive oil, quickly cooked in an oiled skillet ... just like, well, a pancake, ... and then eaten with a squeeze of lemon, some honey, a dollop of puréed fruit, or a spash of fishy garum sauce. 

Ova spongia ex lacte - ova quattor, lactis heminam, olei unciam in se dissolvis, ita ut unum corpus facias, In patellam subtilem adicies olei modicum, facies ut bulliat, et adicies impensam quam parasti. Una parte cum fuerit coctum, in disco vertes, melle perfundis, piper adspargis et inferes.

Pancakes and omlettes just like this were recorded (by Cato the Elder, amongst others) as being available from street sellers throughout Republican Rome and the provinces. And I believe it was permitted to make and eat them at any time throughout the year ... and not just on certain religious days.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 13:33

In fact pancakes are really just fancier flatbread and those have been being made ever since someone invented a simple quern and could heat up a flat stone.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 15:12

MM wrote:
 And I believe it was permitted to make and eat them at any time throughout the year ... and not just on certain religious days.


And that is why the pagan pancake is inferior to the Christian pancake. Shrove Tuesday only comes once a year and pancakes are therefore a treat. No fun in them if you can stuff yourself full of pancakes at any old time.

Therefore Christian pancakes - enjoyed once a year - are a definite benefit, as Priscilla has noted. 

Smile

A sense of sin is a possible benefit of religion: abstinence and denial have their place I'm sure, but giving in to temptation is such fun. How boring and dull life would be without temptation. Without God anything is permitted?

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.

Discuss (our favourite word of the week after the B-word!) - with reference to Saint Paul, Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky, but not necessarily in that order. But have a drink first.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 15:26

Temperance wrote:




Without God anything is permitted?



Discuss (our favourite word of the week after the B-word!) - with reference to Saint Paul, Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky, but not necessarily in that order. But have a drink first.


Well no, because we impose rules and strictures on ourselves, not to mention the societal or dietary ones without even a thought of God every single day.  It would even be argued that 'God' is yet another brake imposed on ourselves and by ourselves.

Don't particularly care what Paul, Nietzsche or Dostoyevsky said or didn't say, not that I've ever read any of them and don't intend to start now. Sleep Sounds far too highbrow for me anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 15:29

Here, have a drink, ID - as I suggested above. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 17:40

I bet those ol' pagans who made pancakes(assorted) didn't have Pancake races.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 19:11

Temperance wrote:
Here, have a drink, ID - as I suggested above.  Smile

Now you are talking Temp. Far more entertaining than misogynist Paul anyday.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 11 Feb 2016, 20:03

My advice to you all:

Drink, eat  (including pan-cakes)  and be merry but look after yourself and all will be all right.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 12 Feb 2016, 10:27

Since we've apparently broadened the field for Shrovetide ...

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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 12 Feb 2016, 14:38

Such a peaceful little town apart from these two days of street football when shop fronts are boarded and every one enjoys the excuse for mayhem. I am glad the stream the chosen follow was not in full spate.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 12 Feb 2016, 14:54

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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 10:49

Could the St Valentine's day delirium be counted as a benefit of religion? There will be reference to pagan connections along with the Christian hijack theme I imagine - but they would be religious also. My own opinion is that it evolved from the ancient 'kelt' observance of Imbolg (also spelled imboic) as an early spring rite to bring fertility through the  purity of fire processions about fields, flocks and herds.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:03

Priscilla wrote:
Could the St Valentine's day delirium be counted as a benefit of religion?

Only if the term "benefit" has been rather radically redefined. You were on safer (if still as incredible) ground with the pancakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 11:29

nordmann wrote:
Priscilla wrote:
Could the St Valentine's day delirium be counted as a benefit of religion?

Only if the term "benefit" has been rather radically redefined. You were on safer (if still as incredible) ground with the pancakes.
Agreed. I would regard it as one of the penalties, not one of the benefits.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 14:11

Priscilla wrote:
Could the St Valentine's day delirium be counted as a benefit of religion? There will be reference to pagan connections along with the Christian hijack theme I imagine - but they would be religious also. My own opinion is that it evolved from the ancient 'kelt' observance of Imbolg (also spelled imboic) as an early spring rite to bring fertility through the  purity of fire processions about fields, flocks and herds.


No, it's a benefit of Geoffrey Chaucer and the tradition of courtly love. The linking of the "delirium" you speak of to Saint Valentine was his idea. See The Parlement of Foules and Complaint of Mars.

Gower egged him on - maybe.

Good academic essay about this here for anyone interested - you can access the whole article (not just the first page) free if you register with JSTOR. It's worth doing - great site.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2847741?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents


This bit of history, from link I give below, is interesting (well, I think it is - I seem to be saying that a lot these days), if not really on-topic:


And yet some scholars, Henry Ansgar Kelly among them, have proposed that Chaucer was actually referring to 3 May, a date on which Valentine of Genoa, a bishop who died around AD 307, was commemorated. Another fact adds credence to the 3 May theory: it was on this date in 1381 that the engagement of Richard II (Chaucer’s patron) to Anne of Bohemia was announced. Chaucer possibly wrote his poem the following year to mark the one-year anniversary of the betrothal.


http://interestingliterature.com/2014/02/13/the-literary-origins-of-valentines-day/


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 16:48

One tale mentions St Valentine or one of them -giving Christian marriage to a couple after it had been banned. He was martyred for that - so not of benefit to him but the 'luurrve' tale is linked with church marriage - or rather mostly forgotten but not the notion and the business it drums up. Enough for the observance to cause some non Christian counties to get huffy about observance of this saint's action. So is the observance and flutter not a benefit of religion? if you like that sort of thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 17:06

Human sacrifice is a benefit of religion "if you like that sort of thing".

But I have a feeling courting, romance, flowers, chocolates and so on had a good chance of coming into being without Valentine's help. In fact I am almost positive they did.

I still prefer your pancake theory.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 14 Feb 2016, 22:09

Modern courting ain't all chocs and roses. I have - in idle moments today- been wondering what I would have done had a beau arrived with a heart shaped cast  iron casserole dish (as advertised.) Nothing pleasant that's for sure and not to anyone's benefit - apart from clergy if last rite were necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 18 Feb 2016, 10:11

Priscilla's thread has nearly reached 10,000 views and is now nipping at Philippa Gregory the Bodice-Ripper's heels.

Is this a benefit to anyone?
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Thu 18 Feb 2016, 15:58

Priscilla wrote:
Modern courting ain't all chocs and roses. I have - in idle moments today- been wondering what I would have done had a beau arrived with a heart shaped cast  iron casserole dish (as advertised.) Nothing pleasant that's for sure and not to anyone's benefit - apart from clergy if last rite were necessary.
I'd suggest an alternative "last rite" - le Creuset fry the donor.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 26 Feb 2016, 09:59

Let me be the one to do this. This subject clearly interests browsers out there - and this  post will bring the thread to 10,000 views. Makes you wonder! Or does it? Discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 26 Feb 2016, 15:23

Ah, but is it googling Religion that brings them here or Benefits?  Are they seeking solace for their souls or advice on how to claim JSA?
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Fri 26 Feb 2016, 16:09

ferval wrote:
Ah, but is it googling Religion that brings them here or Benefits?  Are they seeking solace for their souls or advice on how to claim JSA?

Chapeau, RAOFL! ....... well, it made me smile anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sat 27 Feb 2016, 17:44

Me too...... I suppose stats sometimes given in the tech thread would clarify to some extent. But not if someone has to count them....... boring. Do we really want to know? I suppose if one really wanted a big Google count we ought have a thread on  Free Knickers.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sat 27 Feb 2016, 18:47

According to Google there's practically no one being delivered to the site via a search that lands them directly on this thread. It appears the vast majority of the views are being generated by members.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sat 27 Feb 2016, 20:48

So there really ain't no-one here but us chickens, boss?
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sat 27 Feb 2016, 20:53

On the contrary - the Knights V Snails thread, the Lady Chatterley thread and the Downton Abbey thread have been enormously popular amongst recent Google chickens. The "Why didn't George grant the Tsar asylum" thread is a perennial magnet too. These, and a few others, have way more visiting chicken hits than domestic ones.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 28 Feb 2016, 08:37

I really don't understand this. I for one am forever looking at threads I am interested in, but I don't think even I have clicked on this one several thousand times. I least I hope not. Shocked

I think there must be people out there who regularly look at Res His, but who choose not to be contributing members. But why? Do we scare people to death, do you think? But then I don't get how all this stuff really works. In my innocence, I just thought the 10,000 views to this thread indicated that we were talking about a subject that was of real interest, and that we we were not boring the pants off everybody. But seems I was wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 28 Feb 2016, 08:49

It depends on what you mean by "everybody". If only 10% of views on this thread are generated by guests and visitors that is still one thousand+ incidents of it being read. It also means that it is of considerable interest to the members of the site, statistically nine times more in the sense of encouraging repeated visits. Neither figure suggests boring.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 28 Feb 2016, 09:19

With over 13 pages at about 50 responses per page, if only Temp, Priscilla and myself looked at each new post on this thread only once, that alone would have racked up nearly 2000 viewings ... compared to say my topic about "Which English Monarchs spoke English", which has only gathered sixteen responses in total.

Also, while I don't know how search engines work, I can easily see that a search of "WW1 George Tsar asylum" or even just "History George V Tsar Nicholas" would get straight to the relevant discussion here (and for all I know it may well be a popular school question), while one would have to type something like "religion benefit advantage" to arrive directly at this thread, and I'm not sure that in itself would be a particularly common combination of search words. Just a thought.


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Sun 28 Feb 2016, 09:36

It's got more than that!

There was something interesting about this (speaking German) on the Queen Victoria programme last night. Will post something on your thread at once, MM!

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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 11:16

Some hard-hitting and honest words from MM yesterday over on the Daily Rant thread. Speaking of how one of the benefits of religious faith is the serenity and happiness it is supposed to bring, MM commented:


MM wrote:
But frankly all I usually see, even among the most devout and faithful is uncertainty, doubt, fear and quite often unhappiness.



Not to mention, of course, the occasional dreadful hangover.


I have thought a lot about this whilst drinking copious amounts of black coffee this morning, and have read with some interest the following, written by an atheist who seems to feel pretty good about life. From this link:


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/the-cosmic-shell-game/



In a world of darkness, I am a messenger. When I look around, I see myself surrounded by turmoil, a world where most people live out their lives in inner anguish. From birth to death, the majority of humanity is ever-anxious, never satisfied, always searching and striving for something more. But I know what it is they seek. I was like them once, but then I found it myself – once and for all, I broke through and found peace. Now I have come back to spread this good news, to set my fellow people free with the truth of the message I bear. I don’t claim to be anyone special – just a human being – but I’ve discovered another way, a higher way. A better way, free of the darkness that most people are lost in. It is the way that all people seek, though many of them do not realize it themselves. Just look at them – going about every day sunk in misery. How can they stand it for another moment? The despair, the bleakness, the hopelessness – it’s more than anyone should have to bear. My heart aches for those poor souls. All I want is to enlighten them to the truth, to set them free from their self-imposed prisons; I want to open their eyes. But they don’t want to listen to me. Incredible as it may seem, they’d prefer to stay trapped in the darkness they’ve created for themselves, no matter how miserable and depressed it makes them. They can’t change their minds now, because they’re too proud, too stubborn, to admit that they were ever wrong.

It’s a real shame, on the overall. I genuinely pity those theists. By way of disclaimer, the above paragraphs are, of course, only for rhetorical effect. I am perfectly aware that most theists don’t feel the way I describe. But the thing is, they should. Surely this is a curious position for an atheist to take. After all, this argument is almost invariably used the other way around, against atheists by theists. According to some of them, we’re the ones who are lost in darkness or sunk in misery, who suffer from bleakness and hopelessness, who are locked in self-imposed prisons, etc., etc. – or at least, we should be, since we either don’t know the love of God, or know it but reject it out of pride and stubbornness because we don’t want to admit that we were wrong.

This is not true, of course. In fact, as an atheist, I find my life to be full of light, freedom and hope – I have chosen to live it so. Likewise, I am perfectly content with the people I love, who actually make themselves known to me and take action to help me when I need it. I have never needed the invisible and indifferent love of an unseen deity, nor have I ever had the least perception that such a thing even existed...



A life "full of light, freedom and hope". Lucky old Adam Lee. Do we have here a smug and nauseating happy-clappy atheist then? What an awful thought.


But maybe this happiness v. misery thing is nothing to do with belief or non-belief: is it just a matter of luck? It could be said - a little bitterly (and unfairly perhaps) after reading Adam Lee's testimony of joy - that you get smug so-and-sos everywhere. But then happiness is also a matter of hard work - seeking out one's salvation with diligence and all that, as the Buddhists advise us to do.


And it is of course possible to dwell far too much on all these things; much better to cultivate one's garden after all. In the never-ending search for a life "full of light, freedom and hope" this sounds OK by me:


There are few more premonitory or touching documents than Voltaire’s shopping lists. He demanded green olive oil, eight wing armchairs, rosewood commodes, and furniture covers in red morocco. He hired two master gardeners, twenty workmen, and twelve servants. He ordered the best coffee and crate after crate of wine (though, odd reminder of another time, he drank his Burgundies and laid down his Beaujolais). He decided to paint the trellises green, the tiles red, and the doors either white or “a fine yellow.” He wrote to his agent asking for “artichoke bulbs and as much as possible of lavender, thyme, rosemary, mint, basil, rue, strawberry bushes, pinks, thadicee, balm, tarragon, sariette, burnet, sage and hyssop to cleanse our sins, etc.” When he wrote that it was our duty to cultivate our garden, he really knew what it meant...
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 11:43

Temperance wrote:
Some hard-hitting and honest words from MM yesterday over on the Daily Rant thread.

I was actually going to add a second sentence and write something like:

But frankly all I usually see, even among the most devout and faithful is uncertainty, doubt, fear and quite often unhappiness ..... Either that, or smug, I'm right and I'm alright Jack, self-righteous, God loves ME, arrogance. I can empathise with the former and it's the latter who I find far more worrying and disagreeable.

But Nordmann sort of beat me to it.

I have nothing against feeling doubt, and feeling fear and unhappiness is often just a consequence of the human condition. And I certainly wasn't intending to say that my own beliefs, lifestyle or whatever, make me free from doubt, fear and unhappiness.  What I meant was, that for something that is sometimes believed to be a benefit, if for no other reason than it gives solace and spiritual comfort, then religion very often fails to manage even that, and indeed it is sometimes actually the cause of people's feelings of guilt, worry, anxiety, fear, heart-ache, unhappiness and inadequacy. Remember I was responding to your rant about how your local church had just acted with casual arrogance and very little sympathy and empathy, and in doing so had hurt or insulted several of its congregation. And moreover they didn't seem to care about the pain they'd caused.

As to the happy-clappy, smug, new Brompton Evangelicals .... well, you yourself have voiced your feelings of unease about them.

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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 12:23

Thank you for replying, MM.

I wasn't getting at you with my above post - you were honest and I appreciate honesty above all things. I too believe that doubt and fear and anguish are part of our lot as humans, of course they are: it's just some - be they atheist or religious - seem luckier than others, that's all I wanted to say.

But God knows, I have nothing to complain about - my miseries are all self-inflicted. And I am embarrassed to admit that adolescent religious angst can last a long time for some people.  Smile

Re the happy-clappy crowd. I have indeed expressed doubts about them. They continue to baffle and anger me. I then feel horribly guilty at my uncharitable thoughts about them all. I had yet another confrontation last Wednesday with two of the HTB lot - or rather two who used to go there. I was trying to discuss what was/is meant by "Son of God". Big mistake. I was promptly savaged - really savaged - and was told that unless one believes the orthodox doctrine there can be no salvation: in other words, hell awaits. What utter tosh. I have had this argument before, but I was demolished last Wednesday - left incoherent with rage, in fact. These two are very bright, very educated - and, ironically, very sincere in their efforts - as they see it - to "save" me. I ended up - at my age!! - crying uncontrollably, but, as I said, with rage - and frustration - as much as anything. All rather proves your point, I'm afraid.

It's all so ridiculous - and I think is so far away from the message of the Gospels. But how do you get that across? And why do I keep exposing myself to this - then come running here to complain? God only knows - must be something very wrong with me.

Wasn't at my local little church yesterday - we don't do such giving out of flowers and joy stuff. We like the BCP and King James Bible and decent music - and flowers on the altar only. Awful old snobs we are. But they'll close us down soon. Too small and too old-fashioned.

I'll have to take my polish and vacuum cleaner somewhere else, I suppose - I'm a great believer in Mr Sheen as an aid to salvation.

Gardening now, even though it's freezing cold. Should clear my thick head.

No more ranting from me -  for today at least.

Kind regards.

Temp.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 13:18

There should be a Spinsters Day added to the calendar. I can't imagine that would offend too many Holy Joes / Holy Marys - after all it would be a great hit with the nuns, I reckon.

But then of course it would be all the mothers' turn (non-reverend of course) to wail and gnash dentures in anguish at being left out as all the flowers and other holy benevolences are dished out.

I can't help feeling that our mutual quasi-historical rabbi would have solved it all by declaring every day to be People's Day (he is, after all, originally an invention of the nicer people amongst us).

EDIT: I have just read an article in which it states that in in contemporary UK culture the term "spinster" implies the prefix "bitter" should always be set before it. I'm liking them even more now.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:30

Well there's already the feast day of St Agnes of Rome (2 March), the patron saint of unmarried women, the chaste, and engaged couples, or that of St Anthony of Padua (13 June), the patron saint of women seeking a husband, and of men seeking a wife.


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:31

The rabbi known to many as Jesus did not come up with any such solutions - his code if applied well should be enough - aye but there's the rub.
Not a benefit of religion but doing me no end of good. I have told neighbours that the big mog that defiles their veg gardens and mauls the little birds is called nordmann - being a sort of big fir like the one they had also got that Christmas, I suggest. The chasing thereof and stone lobbing at the named- shouted rascal is so very comforting.


I'll  get me case - away for a while.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:33

I think we should have a Barren Figs' Day (or was it barren stock that Elizabeth Tudor complained of being when they told her that MQS, in addition to everything else, was now, drat it, a yummy mummy too?).

I'm fascinated by the story of Sarah and Hagar. How those two women must have hated each other.

And I always wonder how Sarah felt when her husband set out that day with young Isaac in tow: I wonder if she had an inkling of what Abraham was intending to do? I don't suppose he discussed it with her before he left. Had he gone through with it, the story would have made an interesting Mothers' Day reading. Odd business, but should be considered as allegory of course. Owen turned it into a brilliant anti-war poem.

Someone has written a feminist interpretation of the Bible, I believe - maybe I'll get round to reading it one day. But then again, perhaps not.

EDIT - oh, a post from P.! Hurrah! Haven't read it yet - oh and one from MM too.


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:41

I thought you were supposed to be gardening Temp .... as indeed I'm supposed to be dusting and hoovering.

Temperance wrote:
I'm a great believer in Mr Sheen as an aid to salvation.

I think 'Pledge', sounds like it would be a better aid to salvation, as well as trusting in 'La Croix' when doing around the sink.

 Wink


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:50

Doesn't smell as nice. The vicar thinks I spray myself with Mr Sheen by Dior.

Actually, Marks and Sparks Honey Flower and Sandalwood polish is great - could easily double up as a posh scent.

I am shocked beyond words that Priscilla has called a marauding cat Nordmann and that she throws stones at the unfortunate feline. Cats can't help mauling stupid little birds after all. Just their nature.  







EDIT: It's too cold out there - about three degrees in the shade. Nice day for brisk walk, but not for scratting about in the freezing soil - even in gardening gloves.


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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:57

I don't throw stones because I am  quite good at it - but neighbours fling stuff in a girly sort of way. Said cat also goes into my shed to poo - and has shredded my apple tree bark. To think I used to give it little treats and smile kindly on its little antics.
Am off to consider lilies in fields - meditation is a great benefit of religion - several religions.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 14:58

My lilies are in pots.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 15:00

How inconsiderate.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 15:28

It is of some consolation to me that, should I be wrong and there is a Day of Judgement to come, that vile pair you mentioned will be accompanying me in the Down elevator and unlike me will be utterly unable to understand why.

Anyway, the nether regions wouldn't be so bad, I can't bear the cold and my career has equipped me to get all those cheeky little devils laughing and on my side as I suggest further imaginative ways for them to torment those disgusting people for all eternity. And I'll have pussy-nordmann and all his chums to play with.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 15:39

"Atheists? You must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits! ... And Christians? Ah yes, sorry. I'm afraid the Jews were right."

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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 17:04

I have been informed that the famous Alpha Course devised by Nicky Gumbel, Holy Trinity Brompton's main chap, does not mention Hell - or Toby.


Apparently they go in for Annihilationism. From Wiki:


Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a Christian belief that at the Last Judgment those not receiving salvation are destined for total destruction, not everlasting torment.


That's all right then. We can all breathe again, and the lads can stop worrying about that "little guillotine".  

But to be deadly serious again, this Guardian article is long (it's in two parts), but is worth reading. It is a very fair piece of reporting. I find it all extremely disturbing. Anyone who encouraged all that Toronto Blessing business - as Gumbel did -  worries me. A lot.

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/oct/21/weekend7.weekend

Some claim there are tremendous benefits being offered by the HTB people - I'm afraid I remain rather  uneasy about it all.

But even I am sick of all this religious debate. Live and let live; and love and let love, I say.

Perhaps Hilary Mantel will rescue us soon and publish the last part of her long-awaited trilogy. Then we can all argue about that. Wonder if she'll finish the whitewash job on that sneaky Jane Seymour? I bet she does.
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PostSubject: Re: Religions - The Benefits   Mon 07 Mar 2016, 19:23

Well.

After reading that article I rushed to find a video of this silver-tongued, charismatic and intellectually persuasive man and selected this one at random:  https://www.htb.org/media/there-more-life-nicky-gumbel

Now I expected the expensive hair cut, the designer jeans and the Converse trainers, what I didn't expect was the clichéd vacuity of his presentation.

Jesus is like a new pair of vari-focals. Really?

When he quoted the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the best attested event of the ancient world I switched off. But maybe I only have one stomach and it was turned.

Even as an atheist I would class this guff as an insult to those who believe in a rabbi who proposed a better way to live and would cheerfully slap Mr Gumball around the head with a large wet fish.
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