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 A new national anthem?

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Meles meles
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PostSubject: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 13:25

Is it time for a new British national anthem? Jeremy Corbyn presumably thinks so. As the newly elected leader of the Labour Party, and so head of "Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition", he stood respectfully but resolutely silent through the singing of the national anthem at this week’s Battle of Britain memorial service. As an avowed atheist and republican he presumably found it difficult to earnestly implore God to "save our gracious queen", without appearing to be a hypocrite.



But even monarchists have voiced concerns that the current anthem puts too much emphasis on a (protestant) God, that the words are too militaristic, and that they do not reflect a modern multi-cultural Britain. And as for the later verses imploring God’s aid in crushing the Scots, defeating the French and confounding Popish knavery… these certainly do not reflect current foreign policy. Other critics have said the tune itself is far too dirge-like, although actually the rhythm is that of a rather lively renaissance dance, the gaillard, … or at least it would be if only the tempo was speeded up.

So any suggestions for a new national anthem - either the tune the words or both?

And do feel free to cast a critical eye and ear over other countries’ national anthems. The French Marseillaise is reckoned to be a good lively tune but the words certainly leave a lot to be desired. When he was President, Giscard d’Estaing commented that it was ridiculous to welcome the German Chancellor on a state visit by singing about wanting to drench French fields with impure German blood! But despite a high profile campaign in 1992 the official words have still not been changed.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 20:32

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

Edit out the "her" in line 2 and replace with "our".
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 20:50

How about, " I Vow to Thee, My Country", with the words of Sir Cecil Spring Rice and set to music by Gustav Holst, who apparently was so over-worked at the time that he was hugely relieved to find that with a minimum of effort he could get the words to fit the main theme of 'Jupiter' from 'The Planets' suite. Although again it is a bit mournful being traditional for Rememberance services and state funerals:



I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

I heard my country calling, away across the sea,
Across the waves and waters, she calls and calls to me.
Her sword is girded at her side, her helmet on her head,
And around her feet are lying the dying and the dead;
I hear the noise of battle, the thunder of her guns;
I haste to thee, my mother, a son among thy sons.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 20:57

Sorry, but that one annoys me. Normally, re-using an existing tune doesn't but the overtones of that one just seem so inappropriate for a tune from "The Bringer of Jollity". One of my pet Remembrance Day hates (along with the Binyon twaddle)

So I'll stick with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:14

Smile

"If it hadn't been for the English ... you'd all be Spanish!"

... and in the same mildly xenophobic vein there's:



Last edited by Meles meles on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:36; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:31

Meles meles,

in my humble opinion no change. People are used to it, as to the queen, you can as easy change the queeen when you change the anthem where she stays for. The gates are open then for a republic... Wink


Take now: "De Vlaamse Leeuw" (The Flemish Lion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Vlaamse_Leeuw



When you change the lyrics or the music of this Flemish movement which started in the mid of the 19th century it will I think change the movement...

And of course the words are pompous and bombastic...but it is the music and the sound of the words which are important and to which people cling to...
And for that reason I prefer the Belgian anthem:


And in the three national languages:



But my ultimate choice, and I hope that they never will change that, is:
https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/sounds/lyrics/international.htm
And as I said for me it is the music and the sound of the words that counts and therefore I prefer it in Russian as Russian like Italian has that fluency and clear vowels from the 19th century opera:



 And to be honest I am a bit proud that the composer was born in the same city as I...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_De_Geyter

And look to the state anthem of the Soviet Union after all the turmoil they didn't change the music:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Anthem_of_the_Soviet_Union






Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:34

Paul :
Yes, I like the Brabanconne - and also Het Wilhelmus, but there must be something good about the British National Anthem's tune - or why would so many others have pinched it?
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:46

Meles meles,

"And do feel free to cast a critical eye and ear over other countries’ national anthems. The French Marseillaise is reckoned to be a good lively tune but the words certainly leave a lot to be desired. When he was President, And do feel free to cast a critical eye and ear over other countries’ national anthems. The French Marseillaise is reckoned to be a good lively tune but the words certainly leave a lot to be desired. When he was President, Giscard d’Estaing commented that it was ridiculous to welcome the German Chancellor on a state visit by singing about wanting to drench French fields with impure German blood! But despite a high profile campaign in 1992 the official words have still not been changed.But despite a high profile campaign in 1992 the official words have still not been changed."

"The French Marseillaise is reckoned to be a good lively tune but the words certainly leave a lot to be desired. When he was President, Giscard d’Estaing commented that it was ridiculous to welcome the German Chancellor on a state visit by singing about wanting to drench French fields with impure German blood! But despite a high profile campaign in 1992 the official words have still not been changed."

It can be that that "impure German blood" was the intention of the song, but I don't find it literary in the text? Or is the text already changed?
http://www.metrolyrics.com/la-marseillaise-lyrics-the-national-anthem-of-the-french-republic.html


BTW as the Internationale it is one of my favourites for the music and the sound of the words and I am so happy that they don't want to change it.

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 21:52

Paul : Like you, I can't find an explicit reference to Germans in the lyrics of the Marseillaise, and IIRC it was anti-Austrian in the beginning, (naturally not anti-German as there was no "Germany" then)
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:03

Yes I think the Brabançonne's a cracking good tune too "Le Roi, la loi, la liberté", tumty-tum!

The impure "German" blood doesn't actually appear in the text it just refers to the impure blood of foreign foes:

Allons enfants de la Patrie,
Le jour de gloire est arrivé!
Contre nous de la tyrannie,
L'étendard sanglant est levé,
Entendez-vous dans les campagnes,
Mugir ces féroces soldats?
Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras
Égorger nos fils, nos compagnes!

Aux armes, citoyens,
Formez vos bataillons,
Marchons, marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons!


Arise, children of the Fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us tyranny's
Bloody banner is raised
Do you hear, in the countryside,
The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
They're coming right into our arms
To cut the throats of our sons, our women!

To arms, citizens,
Form your battalions,
Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Water our furrows!

...... but as originally written I thought it was taken to mean the Austrians, later the Prussians were implied, and then eventually all Germans (les Boches). But Valéry Giscard d'Estaing did make the specific comment about the inapropriate "German blood" reference on the occasion of a State visit by the German Chancellor.


Last edited by Meles meles on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:39; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:07

And what I ask you if you want to change the American anthem, I have many times seen the tears in their eyes when the anthem was sung...no better to change not a success story...even the modern ones will agree to that...?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner



Not that I not prefer the other anthems for their Italian like fluency and clear vowels...English that soft in sounds as the Flemish dialects...

Kind regards, Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:28

I doubt anyone is brave enough to try and change the US national anthem as it rather seems to be untouchable, unviolable, almost religiously sacrosact, and so any deviation from the accepted usual "norm", is increasingly viewed almost as akin to heresy or treason. In 1990 when the comedienne Rosanne Barr, not known then or now as a singer, was invited to perform 'The Star Spangled Banner' before 50,000 baseball fans in San Diego, her (comic?) screeching and wailing through the nation’s sacred song drew severe criticism from all sides, even from the president himself. George HW Bush spoke out from Air Force One to denounce her performance as “disgraceful”:



But it was her parting shot that cut patriots most deeply. Imitating baseball players for their unwholesome habits, she grabbed her crotch, spat to her right, then strode off the field with her arms raised. She later conceded that her comedic touch was mistimed.


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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:31

Well, I suppose a good old drinking club song which has had those interminable verses forcibly grafted on to it would probably reduce me to tears, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAIdVKv84g
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sat 19 Sep 2015, 22:49

Mind you, "The Star-Spangled Banner" was only made the official national anthem on 3 March 1931 when it was signed into law by Herbert Hoover. Previous to that "Hail, Columbia" had often served the purpose, or for most of the 19th century "My Country, 'Tis of Thee", whose melody is of course identical to "God Save the Queen". Despite the melody, the lyrics actually aren't too bad ... perhaps we should claim them back, in exchange for them taking our Anacreon drinking song!

My country, 'tis of thee,
Sweet land of liberty,
Of thee I sing;
Land where my fathers died,
Land of the pilgrims' pride,
From ev'ry mountainside
Let freedom ring!

My native country, thee,
Land of the noble free,
Thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
Thy woods and templed hills;
My heart with rapture thrills,
Like that above.

Let music swell the breeze,
And ring from all the trees
Sweet freedom's song;
Let mortal tongues awake;
Let all that breathe partake;
Let rocks their silence break,
The sound prolong.

Our fathers' God to Thee,
Author of liberty,
To Thee we sing.
Long may our land be bright,
With freedom's holy light,
Protect us by Thy might,
Great God our King.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 08:12

I'm not sure if a new British anthem is a good idea - one should at least wait until everyone has settled again on what remains to be called "Britain" in the future.

However it is a composition I detest on purely musical grounds if nothing else and for that reason alone I have always been a strong advocate of the Scottish and Welsh having their own national songs. Northern Ireland needs two of course (neither of which should be that bloody Canadian caterwaul "Danny Bleeding Boy"). However this should not mean that Englanders feel obliged to persevere with the song advising a deity to be thrifty with monarchs.

I believe that others in fact agree with me, and I have read that the current leading contenders for a purely English national anthem are Blake's "Jerusalem" set to music by Parry in 1916, and Elgar and Benson's "Land of Hope and Glory" from 1902. For me, running a close second to "Jerusalem" must be Chumbawamba's "Tubthumping" from 1997. But I imagine I'm pretty much alone in that one.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 10:43

"Wider still and wider, may her bounds be set," is a line that would have to go from 'Land of Hope and Glory' as the Uk diminishes - since taking on more land is now neither a good thing nor acceptable to the foreigners who own it.... even if most of them live here.
A pop group though ought seize on 'Hope and Glory' as a name and get not end of free publicity - or have they? Some have daft enough names but others are rather clever.... start a thread someone, it's not my acre.

I find the Russian national anthem most moving of all. Forgetting the politics, for me it embodies the voice a people who have suffered much yet have come through stronger. All right, so that's more of my emotional claptrap..... just saying, that's all.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:46

Bit off-topic, but about Corbie and Her Madge and the Almighty. Jeremy has been invited to be a Privy Counsellor, which involves kneeling and saying "I do" to an oath which has been more or less the same since 1250. The wording is tricky, as you would expect.

I wonder how he well wriggle out of this one? Perhaps Sharon in Swindon or Kanye in Bolton will advise him.



You do swear by Almighty God to be a true and faithful Servant unto The Queen's Majesty as one of Her Majesty's Privy Council. You will not know or understand of any manner of thing to be attempted, done or spoken against Her Majesty's Person, Honour, Crown or Dignity Royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to Her Majesty Herself, or to such of Her Privy Council as shall advertise Her Majesty of the same. You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in Council, faithfully and truly declare your Mind and Opinion, according to your Heart and Conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in Council. And if any of the said Treaties or Counsels shall touch any of the Counsellors you will not reveal it unto him but will keep the same until such time as, by the consent of Her Majesty or of the Council, Publication shall be made thereof. You will to your uttermost bear Faith and Allegiance to the Queen's Majesty; and will assist and defend all civil and temporal Jurisdictions, Pre-eminences, and Authorities, granted to Her Majesty and annexed to the Crown by Acts of Parliament, or otherwise, against all Foreign Princes, Persons, Prelates, States, or Potentates. And generally in all things you will do as a faithful and true Servant ought to do to Her Majesty so help you God .



PS I like "I Vow to Thee My Country" - always makes me cry.


Last edited by Temperance on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 15:13; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I spelt "counsellor" incorrectly - see post below.)
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 12:01

If I was him I'd just launch into a loud rendition of "Tubthumping".
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 13:35

This is the answer;

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 13:47

Up here we've had many suggestions as to what might make an alternative national anthem but for my money the much missed Michael Marra's submission should be adopted immediately.

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 21 Sep 2015, 15:12

Is it Privy Counsellor or Privy Councillor? Embarassed

Common Mistakes and Confusing Words in English


If you want the dictionary definition, just double click on any word.  


councillor vs
counsellor

Councillor  is a noun which means an elected member of a local government.

For example: "He was elected to be a councillor in 1998."

Counsellor  is a noun, which means someone who is trained to listen to people and give them advice about their problems.  


Oh dear, it clearly should be Privy Counsellor, because Jeremy will have to listen to all the Queen's terrible problems about how best to cope with the unruly people(s) who live together in this island (and our bit of the other one) -  and then give Her Majesty his wise and impartial advice. I have edited my post above.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Wed 18 Nov 2015, 12:09

Ironically, given current world affairs, The Marseillaise as the French national anthem was actually banned during the 2nd Empire under Napoleon III, as being too "revolutionary". In its place, although it was always unofficial, the authorities encouraged the use of a popular song written in about 1807 and inspired by Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, all about a knight leaving for the Crusades. It was called,  Partant pour la Syrie - Departing for Syria (!)
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 13:17

According to today's Guardian this old debate is about to be awoken yet again. "Jerusalem" is (as expected) the unofficial front runner as a new anthem just for England.

Here it is along with the present dirge for comparison purposes. In my view there's no contest.

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 14:25

Good grief, nordmann, you are being very restrained, if not positively generous. I should have thought "Holy Lamb of God", "Jerusalem", "countenance divine" - not to mention "England's pleasant pastures green" - all in one verse would have had you heading straight for the vomitorium.

I love "Jerusalem". You can't beat a nice bit of Blake, and the tune's lovely too.

I am only joking (first paragraph), so please don't have an enormous irk.


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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 14:39

Why would a Blake poem have me heading for the stadium exit? (Contrary to popular misconception a "vomitorium" was not a place in which to probe further the diced carrot enigma).

Blake's "Jerusalem" - a series of rhetorical questions to which the answers would be; "No, no, No, NO! Get them your-bleedin'-self!"
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 15:59

An anthem for the English ?Surely Land of Hope and Glory fits the bill nicely. Wider still and wider meets the new obesity style very well and being made mightier yet allows for general but not really expected  all round improvement. Being something that will be bellowed from the football stands does not  really fit with curiosity about whether Jesus came here or not.....  and would that have been as a tourist or asylum seeker? 

It had better be rousing ... ...am still amused about the Russian football commentator who fell asleep during his commentary of a Barcelona match. He got the sack - and a  duvet, perhaps. Sadly no one has reported how it was noticed and of his awakening.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 16:10

Hesitate as I do to suggest what the English might choose to sing, if Elgar's your bag what about P&C 4? Even if it does call upon you-know-Who to lead the march, the sentiments are a bit less expansionist, if no less hypocritical, than those of L of H&G and it's a good rousing sing-along melody. Even I managed to stay more or less in tune when I gave vent as part of the school choir in 1950 something.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 16:24

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 16:39

@Priscilla wrote:

It had better be rousing ... ...am still amused about the Russian football commentator who fell asleep during his commentary of a Barcelona match.

Ah well ... maybe that was the fault of the Spanish National Anthem, which famously has no words at all. It is quite a stirring tune but I feel one can't really be "roused" unless one can join in ... and Winnie-the-Pooh type humming and pommty-poms isn't quite the same as a rousing sing-along, is it? Although of course as it was Barcelona playing, the anthem might well have been that of Cataluña, "Els Segadors" which is rousingly singable, as long as you speak Catalan.

And just a commentator falling asleep isn't too bad ... it could have been worse:



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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 16:47

The problem with Land of Hope and Glory is that it's all about Britain, not England, and an expansionist British empire at that. New lyrics would be in order if it was to be tailored for purely English use (unless England is planning its own empire at some point in the future).

This one below was apparently Churchill's favourite as an alternative anthem. It astutely avoids naming the land in question and reads like a kamikaze recruitment advertisement. However even Her Madge and Phil The Greek give it a good belt in this rendition (at least she's saved the embarrassment of singing "God save our gracious me").



EDIT: Oops - I'd missed that MM already had suggested it above.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 22:11

Neither Scotland nor Wales required an act of parliament when their sporting associations and unions chose not to use the UK state anthem before international matches. It's puzzling, therefore, that the UK parliament should be debating this with regard to England.

That said - I certainly agree that Jerusalem is a depressing dirge. I'm quite taken with the proposals that a more contemporary sound would suit such as Tubthumping by Chumbawumba or Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now by The Smiths. Tubthumping, however, samples the strains of Danny Boy so maybe that rules it out.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 22:22

Britain becoming more and more "Belgium" with its regions, anthems and all that...?





And I forgot the German community...not yet an anthem at the first glance...
http://www.minet-tv.com/videos/unnoticed-belgium-the-german-speaking-community-m332-31-1.html

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Thu 14 Jan 2016, 23:05

And if NZ lads in shorts can do Hakka chants I reckon everyone else who plays them ought do a similar performance. Scots could toss cabers, perhaps. Since Morris dancing might not be a good idea we might have the English team reciting 'IF' by Kipling  - with expansive actions. I am at a loss tho  to suggest what the Welsh and irish might perform.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Fri 15 Jan 2016, 03:10

Well England could have had this one, but unfortunately Trump nabbed it first. Be prepared to cringe

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Fri 15 Jan 2016, 10:27

@Priscilla wrote:
And if NZ lads in shorts can do Hakka chants I reckon everyone else who plays them ought do a similar performance. Scots could toss cabers, perhaps. Since Morris dancing might not be a good idea we might have the English team reciting 'IF' by Kipling  - with expansive actions. I am at a loss tho  to suggest what the Welsh and irish might perform.


I'm rather taken with the idea of the Irish rugby team doing a Riverdance style routine. The Welsh have atready got a decnt anthem so they could just add doing imaginative things with daffs - perhaps a la Carry On Nurse.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Fri 15 Jan 2016, 15:15

Oh yes, ferv. Group flower arranging while the Hakka goes on - perhaps singing 'David of the White Rock in 5 parts.' Love it! And as for River Dance - Yeeesss!
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Fri 15 Jan 2016, 21:28

I think that to give England (and/or Wales) a chance against NZ they would need to resurrect this
http://archery.mysaga.net/archlaws.html
and demonstrate their prowess at haka time.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sun 17 Jan 2016, 16:31

I think we ought stick to ferv's suggestion of Pomp and Circumstance 4 ....... should we come over all Isis then we might just get away with calling it  'Pompadums and Circumsion 4 all'
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Sun 17 Jan 2016, 16:56

Now if everyone would just adopt this as their anthem, what a happier world it would be.

From the sublime Michael Marra:

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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 08:17

Now that the issue has come up in parliament and therefore some MP most likely tweeted about the issue the BBC News crowd have finally cottoned on to the debate too. In one of their articles however they have managed to come up with one alternative we'd all seemingly forgotten here regarding a purely English anthem. Not only does it start with an invitation to knock back a few units but with only a slight bit of tweaking of the lyrics it would actually make quite a jolly and inoffensive (to ex-colonials) ditty indeed.



From a 1939 film, I read today. I always reckoned it was older.



And it's quite adaptable.
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Gilgamesh of Uruk
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 22:28

"There'll always be an England" That's not saying much. There'll always be a North Pole if some dangerous lunatic doesn't go and melt it.

M. Flanders - prescient or what?
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 23:08

If we lose this England we can always import a new one from America - or have a massive migration.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 23:21

Doubt it - an American England (other than some parts of the "New" one) would surely not meet our, more stringent, requirements. However, they are probably turning Englands out by the thousand in China even as we post.
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PostSubject: Re: A new national anthem?   Mon 18 Jan 2016, 23:47

And all with the wrong fuses and plugs....... and we probably won't even have a Trident when they arrive. They will have to be renamed anyway - Wooden Spoon, comes to mind.....or Hand bag?
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